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Season 4 Episode 18 Streaming/Discussion Thread The Person Who Posts As Fluttershy (Element of Self-descriptive Usernames) 472799

This week's episode is titled For Whom the Sweetie Belle Toils and is written by Dave Polsky The synopsis is:
When Sweetie Belle becomes angry with Rarity for stealing her spotlight, she deliberately sabotages a costume for one of Rarity’s most elite clients. Later that night, Sweetie Belle is paid a visit by Luna in her dreams."

Airing, streaming information and YouTube links
The episode will air Saturday at 10:30AM Eastern 7:30AM Pacific

Stream and chat is available at http://www.bronystate.net/theater/applejack/

YouTube links will be added when available.
Please remember to tag spoilers properly
You can utilize the "hide" function (ctrl+h or [ h ][ /h ] (without space) to hide large sections of spoiler to avoid big blacked out sections.

Anonymous 472807

File: 1395360597458.png (381.68 KB, 800x1088, human_scootaloo_sketch_by_john…)

I know how that is.


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Heavy Mole 472848

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Awesome, this sounds zany from the get-go!

Rambling!Rose//pzOM 472852

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There's potential in this episode. Possibly some parallels are drawn between Sweetie and Luna, which could be cool. The synopsis makes it sound like this could be a very character-focused episode, which I would like very much. And of course the return of our (most) beloved princess. Here's hoping they actually do something with her and that they don't focus on any zany antics of Sweetie Belle.

I'm cautiously excited.

Thanks again for these, Shoxy, even though I've taken to not watching the clips beforehand.

Silver Strength!TwiDasH7n2 472862

File: 1395445902419.png (1.93 MB, 4000x3404, Chrysalis singing.png)

>Possibly some parallels are drawn between Sweetie and Luna, which could be cool.

Maybe Luna likes to sing, too!

Rambling!Rose//pzOM 472929

So that was fairly dumb and pointless, with some cool things here and there.


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I dislike stolen plots.

Heavy Mole 472939

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Man, I forgot what a brat Sweetie Belle is.

I'm probably most curious about that play, though. What was it about? What were the circumstances which led up to its performance? What is Sweetie's sudden fascination with Elizabethan drama? Maybe Luna will come and take me to see it as a flashback in my dreams tonight.

Anonymous 472940

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Snotty Belle sure was mareish.

Oddly…I liked this one. Am I going to be in the minority? I just hope Polsky didn't steal the spotlight from Powell by borrowing that dream-walking.

Don't be such a Scrooge.

Heavy Mole 472941

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"…They swim with me in my dreams."

Anonymous 472944

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I'm not going to be too critical of it. It's Sweetie, after all. Just the whole past, present, future thing… She should have woken up, stuck her head out the window and asked Pip what day it was.

Skybrook!8MDcALmdno 473059

File: 1395556541428.jpg (Spoiler Image,213.15 KB, 1920x1080, ok what.jpg)

I guess Sweetie Belle's special talent is having dreams? Because damn…

Rambling!Rose//pzOM 473101

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Did she?

Eh, I didn't really hate the episode or anything, I just didn't particularly like it, either.

I dislike seeing ponies mess things up and be dumb, and since we knew all the time Sweetie was in the wrong and kept being angry at Rarity and messing things up it wasn't that enjoyable to me. Yeah, Sweetie is a kid and kids are childish but she just felt like a damn brat who couldn't think. She had asked Rares to help make their play the best it could be and when she did she got mad at her. Yes, I know, Sweetie wanted to do it all by herself and not be overshadowed by her sister, I get that. However, we only saw two instances of Rarity "overshadowing" Sweetie, and the birthday thing seemed awfully odd. I would have imagined Sweetie and Rarity would have talked about that at some point before and cleared things up. Maybe they did, and what Luna showed was simply what Rarity had told Sweetie before, which Sweetie had forgotten for some reason.

Eh, I just don't like such childish behaviour, I suppose, especially when the person should know better.

They did compare Sweetie and Luna in this episode, which I'm kinda glad for, but they really didn't explore Luna at all, simply restating what we already knew, which was a tad disappointing. I also feel it's a bit unfair to Luna to compare her situation with that of Sweetie Belle but that could just be me. Luna's dreamwalking seemed super OP but I'm okay with that. I'm just curious whether or not she really showed Sweetie the future, or if she simply made that up on her own based on what Sweetie thought might happen, or by piecing it together from the minds of different ponies. Her being able to show Sweetie that birthday party felt slightly weird, too, as did her knowing what Rarity said before she went to bed (unless that was made up, we don't know). It seems Luna isn't limited to simply seeing the dreams of ponies, but their memories, too. Having a princess who can sort of read your mind sounds a little bit scary. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if that was part of the reason Luna got upset before, ponies finding out she can read their minds and whatnot. And of course them not appreciating her nights and so on.

Still about the dreamwalking, does she have an alarm system which alerts her when a pony is having a nightmare so she knows who to observe and help, or does she see all the dreams at the same time? Sapphire Shore's dolphins didn't sound like nightmare fuel, anyways, so it seems she doesn't only visit nightmares. Can she see all dreams of all ponies? Does she have to pick and choose? So many questions, so few answers. Other than "it's magic!"

Oh, the episode? Eh, it just didn't grip me. I don't much care for the CMC anyways, and Sweetie being an unreasonable brat didn't help. Neither did her running away from Rarity instead of simply explaining what was going on where Sapphire couldn't hear her. Yeah, yeah, she wanted to fix it herself, but still. Rarity and Sapphire were pretty delightful, though, and despite sounding a tad off it was nice seeing Luna again.

Anonymous 473102

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Yeah, they did push things a bit far with too little to base it on. Time constraints would be the easiest excuse, I suppose.

>they really didn't explore Luna at all

I've gotten to the point where I see that as a good thing. D:< Partly because I think she (and to an extent Tia) work better being left a bit mysterious. Also because the characters they've dicked around with a lot–especially once Hasbro started taking more control–have suffered for it, and I'd rather the few who are still relatively open to interpretation be left without dickings.

That…came out wrong.

>does she have an alarm system which alerts her when a pony is having a nightmare so she knows who to observe and help, or does she see all the dreams at the same time?
"Whoa. Is that…?"
"The Maretrix?"
"Dude. Do you always look at it encoded?"
"Well, you have to. The image translators work for the dream acquisition program. But there's way too much information to decode the Maretrix. You get used to it. I don't even see the code. All I see is pegasus, earth pony, unicorn. Hey, uh, you want a drink?"

>despite sounding a tad off it was nice seeing Luna again.
Tabby isn't terribly consistent with Luna's voice. :/

Anonymous 473103

Yay, screwed up the spoiler tags.

Rambling!Rose//pzOM 473116

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Yeah, I'm fairly sure time constraints can be used as an excuse for a lot of things with the show, and has been, too. To me it certainly does feel like an excuse, though, since they do know how much time they have to work with in any given episode. But of course I don't know how making these episodes really goes, so… eh.


>not wanting Luna or Celestia to get the dick
…actually, I'd prefer they didn't do that in the show, either. And for all I know they might prefer mares, anyways. I would assume they might just go for either, though, or at least have had time to experiment.

That's a fairly good point. On the other hand I always feel it's such a waste if they don't give us something more. Yes, they are supposed to be those all-powerful princess figures (or even goddess types if you prefer I do) and them being left vague helps keep that image stronger. And despite me liking them in that role them actually being like other ponies with their own feelings and thoughts is something I would love to see. We did get a snippet of Celestia's regret of mooning NMM and how Summer Sun Celebration's been just a sad reminder of one of the worst things she has done, and Luna was hurt by what happened during Nightmare Night, and of course her fall was the result of her feeling normal pony emotions. There are ponies behind there, ponies who hurt, ponies who love, ponies who can't necessarily show these emotions because of being put on such a pedestal, ponies who must have seen lots of faithful students grow old and die. We know these ponies are there, and I would absolutely love to see them. And each time we have something with Luna or Celestia I hope we get to see Luna and Celestia, not Princess Luna or Princess Celestia.

But as you pointed out, maybe it is for the best the show doesn't touch that because there are so many ways they could screw it up, and frankly I'm not certain they could pull it off. But I still want it, dammit.

And to be fair we did get something in this episode, when Luna pointed out her own mistake in the past. I know Luna was supposed to be in a supporting role here, so I admit I'm expecting too much and am a bit disappointed over nothing. I just feel her character has so much more to explore than Sweetie Belle's…



And yeah, sadly so. There've been changes in the voices of pretty much everypony, it's just that with those we hear more rarely it's way more noticeable. At least for me.

Heavy Mole 473122

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No, I had a weird dream instead.

Anonymous 473169

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What (and who) the princesses do on their own time is their business and I ain't gonna pry!


Not arguing in the least. This would've been another decent candidate for providing some sorts of hints along the way in prior episodes if they really wanted to take it to the extremes they did here.

>or even goddess types if you prefer

I do too. At the very least, extremely powerful and long-lived beings. Things worked better back when that was the assumption. Thankfully, through the power of autism, I can happily dismiss Cadence and Twilicorn as false alicorns and thus preserve my pre-wedding world view of the show.

>actually being like other ponies with their own feelings and thoughts is something I would love to see.

We do, to a degree. Tia has her public princessly face, yet we also see her hanging out with the mane6 like the lot of them were any other regular ponies (eg, Sugarcube Corner post-Gala), making and owning up to mistakes (chastising Twi for interfering with the wedding), even playing pranks (Philomena). It's these facets which make Tia so much more endearing to me than if she were nothing more than that public face. And Luna has tried to mingle–rather clumsily at first (Luna Eclipsed). Putting this latest episode in against what we know about her makes it seem a bit sad that she's still beating herself up a bit over the NMM fiasco. Still, I loved seeing how her dreamwalking was brought back. That was a genius addition Corey gave her, and it shows how much Moonbutt cares for others despite being rather reclusive. And yeah, that NMM reprise this season touched on things fairly nicely. As for the generations of ponies these two have watched come and go…as Steve Allen said, old men miss many dogs. I don't like to go too far down that train of thought though.

Speaking of all that, you might find something I crapped out a bit ago interesting: https://mlpchan.net/oat/res/1759717.html#1765284

Anonymous 473195

Oh good grief. I just went over to catch up on EqD and read through the episode followup. Apparently I have no original thoughts.

Rambling!Rose//pzOM 473197

That's too bad. Maybe she'll visit tonight?

>the power of autism compels me
Yah, with you there. I've been entertaining a story idea where a group of ponies, Followers of the Old Gods or whatever, would start hunting down the false alicorns Twilight and Cadence. Sadly I'm not much of a writer, but at least I can amuse myself with that~

>Celestia the pony

Oh yeah, I suppose you are right with that. Had forgotten about those scenes. I should really rewatch S1 again. Also I believe that was Pony Joe's, not Sugarcube Corner.

Luna, yeah, it is a bit sad, but to be fair I find it really understandable. It was a rather big fuck up, that one, one that hurt lots of ponies, including the one she probably loves the most and who'll be around when nopony else is.

>old men miss many dogs

Yeah… Me, I rather like the whole idea of how immortality, or at least living so long, is a huge burden but how they still manage to live with it and love their little ponies. It is sad, but still uplifting in a way, and I find it does a lot for their characters. Not that I'd necessarily want to see too much of that in the show, though, but in fanworks it can be really beautiful.


Agreed on that, the Nightmare being an external force really makes it seem Luna was just a poor, poor victim. Of course, the Elements possibly brainwashing a pony just seems… wrong. Of course, if we go say Luna and NMM were one and the same and that she wasn't as pissed as she was before, you could say she was simply robbed of her powers. She was still visibly afraid of Celestia when she was rainbow'd, after all. Which leads us to

>2 and 3

If we take what happened in the flashback in PTS as canon, she tried to kill Celestia before she was mooned. However, when she returned, she never really tried to hurt anypony, as you pointed out. The theory/observation that Luna might have actually tailored the obstacles to correspond with the Elements is one I've heard before, and it very much rings true. Only the first obstacle was truly deadly, and even then they had pegasi in their group, so… yeah.

Maybe she was super pissed at the time, grown tired of being overshadowed so much by her sister I'd assume it had taken years for her to reach this point, if not dozens of years and just went mad. Not the most likeable image, I suppose, but one I could see.

Can't say yes or no to whether or not she was actually evil and wanted to harm others, but I really don't see that. She was pissed at the sun-loving little ponies in FiM when she returned, but she certainly wasn't hostile, and again, didn't do any of them any harm.

And yeah, I absolutely love the dreamwalking. It feels like a natural part of her character and adds so much, even if it can be ridiculously OP. It should be~

I don't usually bother with those, EqD episode stuff and the comments there just tend to make me angry. I'll probably take a look, though.

Anonymous 473203

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>Followers of the Old Gods


Could well be right about which foodery they were at, and I need to rewatch the first couple seasons again sometime too. Took a few peeks to check some details for my write-up, and it's already weird how differently I view the characters now. Twilight was one of my favorite mane6 gals back then. :/

>NMM was a big fuck up, external forces would make Luna a victim

But she was a victim–of the thoughtlessness of others and her own insecurities. I've said before somewhere that the writers missed a chance at wrap-up lessons on Not Taking Others For Granted as well as Not Bottling Shit Up Inside You. Or something to that effect anyway. Luna got her chastisement and apologized, yet nothing about ignoring Luna's work was ever addressed. We still have the Summer Sun Fest for Sunbutt, and Luna gets…well, I guess Nightmare Night, which is a sort of back-handed dedication.


It's one of those things best left subtle, IMO, otherwise it tends to head into over-the-top maudlin emotional blackmail. Just the realization that the sisters are already so, so much older than the other ponies will ever be is enough to view the time and care they put into pony lives with a slightly different perspective. Or maybe it takes having to outlive a few loved ones yourself to appreciate how much Tia and, more recently, Luna invest themselves in the short-lived ones.

>she tried to kill Celestia before she was mooned

Hmm. Looks like I need to rewatch that episode. O'course the obvious excuse for NMM not harming anyone is that it's a kids' show (same with the mane6 getting obstacles tailored to them), but that's not as much fun.


It starts off with a Matrix riff, then points out some of the same things I did. Humbug! The followups can be interesting, even if I don't always agree with the observations. But my browser doesn't even load the comments section anymore (RequestPolicy ftw), keeping me blissfully ignorant of what goes on in there.

Rambling!Rose//pzOM 473235

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>Luna a victim
Yes, in a way she was, but since there's no Nightmare it doesn't take away her own choices and feelings. It doesn't remove the blame from her, or the others unlike the Nightmare who'd then be almost solely responsible for NMM. Luna was a victim, but she wasn't free of blame like she would have been if Nightmare was a separate entity.

You are right about Luna only getting a reminder of her failure from before. In some fics I've been reading this has been a point. Why would there necessarily be Winter Moon Extravaganzas for Luna when she hasn't been around for so long, and ponies might not even remember her, only Nightmare Moon? Maybe Celestia could have kept them around, but maybe it would have just been salt to her wounds, kind of like SSC turned out for her. Anyways, it's not hard to imagine Luna still feeling unappreciated when she got back. I feel this could make for a good story, having to confront her feelings of jealousy and insecurity again. Yeah, Luna Eclipsed sort of did that, but not quite, I don't think. Comparing herself to Celestia again and showing us how she's grown since NMM happened. But… that would take a part of that mystery away from them, which you brought up earlier as a fairly important thing.

Those lessons, yeah. I feel bottling your shit up has been addressed in an off-handed way in GIYC, though they weren't exactly bottling them up, they just hid them from one another so it is arguable whether or not it was actually addressed. I agree that with Luna and Celestia those lessons could be done way better, especially since we know they've struggled with those already.

>NMM killing Celestia

I can't remember if she straight up said she wanted to do that, but at least to me it was heavily implied with her shooting death lasers all around and at Celestia. Of course the "it's a kids' show" excuse is valid, but as you said it isn't that fun and kills discussion fairly effectively.


For me it depends a lot on the focus of the story in question. Yeah, it can certainly go in that direction if you let it, that's for sure. I don't want it thrown in my face, either, but mentions of faithful students from before, or just pictures of them really drives the point home. It doesn't need much more than that, IMO. Having to watch your own children grow old and die is probably a teeny tiny bit excessive, even if effective. I'm also a sucker for sad and/or tragic stories like that, so there's that, too. Not in the show, mind you.

Anonymous 473247

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>Winter Moonbutt Cabaret & Revue
The common translation of the Summer Sun Toga Party is that it's their summer equinox, which makes sense. If there's a longest day of the year, it stands to reason that there's a longest night too. So on one hand, there should logically be a winter equinox event of some sort for celebrating lunacy, which could be revived now that the night princess is back. On the other hand, Hearth's Warming may already be that equinox celebration, which just adds fuel to the pissiness Luna must've felt when what should've been her holiday got preempted for something else while big sis still gets her annual asspats. And on that note, even if Capslock was a strange vehicle for driving it, having Luna Eclipsed show her bitterness and fragile self-esteem was a satisfying bit of continuity.

On a bit of a tangent, something interesting I've noticed is how the various characters react to realizing they were wrong. Apologies usually come from those who are just regular characters, while authority figures will instead only compliment the other for being right without ever overtly admitting to being wrong. Like Spitfire to Dashie (twice!), and Tia to Twilight after Chrysalis was dealt with. This is something which only occurred to me recently and I haven't had a chance to go back and verify, but if it does hold true it makes Luna's introduction scene a bit curious.

>mentions of faithful students from before

Sunset Shimmer? :D Nah, I know what you meant. And I'm afraid the closest I'll get to touching fanfics is engaging in headcanon discussions like this one now and then.

The Person Who Posts As Fluttershy (Element of Self-descriptive Usernames) 473289

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My head-canon is that Nightmare Night is a bastardized version of Luna's old holiday.

Anonymous 473292

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BRAINFART ALERT! Solstice, not equinox. Derp. This is why I shouldn't post when tired. :P

I went outside the show for a more literal route, figuring that Nightmare Night was the ponish Halloween, and Hearth's Warming was Yule/Xmas. Your idea has its own appealing logic too though. So, assuming that the pones are all still attached to their traditional Nightmare Night, how would you suggest approaching the holiday in a way that lets them have their scary butt fun while also celebrating Luna, her role, and the longest night? And just how diabetic would Luna get eating all that sacrificial candy?

The Person Who Posts As Fluttershy (Element of Self-descriptive Usernames) 473318

File: 1395708202074.png (163.47 KB, 1024x748, one_massive_luna_by_dargon570-…)

How would you suggest approaching the holiday in a way that lets them have their scary butt fun while also celebrating Luna, her role, and the longest night?
remove pinkie pie
Don't exclude Luna obviously. Remove refences to Nightmare Moon. Start with a meteor shower or something, then everyone goes trick or treating/pranking in their costumes till midnight when Luna raises the moon.

Anonymous 473343

File: 1395715142267.gif (280.62 KB, 853x480, pipsqueek.gif)

>Remove refences to Nightmare Moon.
No more scary butt fun?

And Pinkie really was a jerk.

LyraTheFlirt!!Ah2q8cdspr 473409

File: 1395788014064.png (123.41 KB, 800x1000, cloaked_lyra_by_ask_lyrathepon…)

It was "decent" enough I guess.

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