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File: 1373914672777.png (133.7 KB, 343x300, RD unimpressed.png)

Agiri 354141[Last 50 Posts]

No one here actually believes this show has consistently good morals, right? We're all here because the show is well animated, cute, and funny, but "teaching kids good morals" does not belong on this list of praises.

Even ignoring the obvious examples of FPK and MMDW, there are plenty more examples of botched morals.

-Ticket Master: Why would you send the tickets back? Obviously, the rational thing to do is to sit down as a group and discuss who has the best reasons to go to. "SAME FOR ALL! SAME SAME SAME!"

-One bad apple - "If you're being bullied, come up with some stupid convoluted plan that hinges on an assumption that was already proven false earlier in the episode(that bab's would give two shits about their stupid float)". Considering how confusing the topic of bullying can be to a young person, muddying the waters with bullshit is not a good way to go.

Super Speedy etc - It's okay to give yourself an advantage if you're losing

MMC - All the pony races have their advantages(but just kidding, wings are kick ass and make you better)

Anonymous 354227

File: 1373920757727.png (1.47 MB, 1166x1596, Spitfire.png)

>>354141

>One bad apple - "If you're being bullied, come up with some stupid convoluted plan that hinges on an assumption that was already proven false earlier in the episode


Pretttty sure the moral (and the solution that resolved the problem) was to tell an authority figure and get their help.

>MMC - All the pony races have their advantages(but just kidding, wings are kick ass and make you better)


But wings are kickass and make you better. (Provided they work.)

Heavy Mole 354280

File: 1373923731891.jpg (7.94 KB, 225x224, lucy3.jpg)

>>354141
I would personally consider Friendship is Magic to be good children's literature, but not because of any condensed morals, per se. You're taking it too literally, OP. A story speaks through the language of imagination: we see characters with distilled traits in fantastic settings and circumstances, which bring together our fragmentary sense of daily experience in a way which is meaningful. For example, you brought up the case of "One Bad Apple". It's true that parade floats might be a little far-fetched in terms of our every day lives; but we certainly all carry "convoluted plans" involving ongoing, petty wars with people we dislike. It's all metaphorical. It would be as though you watched the movie Up and objected to it on the grounds that balloons would not be enough to levitate a house, etc.

Of course, not all stories pull this off well, but I think FiM is strong in this category (particularly season one), and that this was one of the driving forces behind its craze.
This post was edited by its author on .

354294

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>>354141
>-One bad apple - "If you're being bullied, come up with some stupid convoluted plan that hinges on an assumption that was already proven false earlier in the episode(that bab's would give two shits about their stupid float)". Considering how confusing the topic of bullying can be to a young person, muddying the waters with bullshit is not a good way to go.
The moral was "listen to Sweetie Belle"

>Super Speedy etc - It's okay to give yourself an advantage if you're losing

The moral was "It's okay to ask your friends for help and you shouldn't cut corners to succeed."

>Dog and Pony Show

The moral was "Girls can control men with their tears."

Anonymous 354309

File: 1373925378507.jpg (192.43 KB, 1600x900, I'm an intellectual.jpg)

Clearly, someone hasn't learned the magic of friendship.

Anonymous 354366

>Super Speedy
Technology is bad.
You're too stupid to outwit or judge a mysterious and douchy person's offer in your favor - so you better challenge them on purpose to prove an asinine point, and mainly cause you don't like them.
>MMC >Show Stoppers
Never aspire to be something you're not currently good at. You're either born with talent or you might as well rest in peace.
>Majority of season 2
Allow your friends to treat your personality, your feels and your beliefs, like shit because they're your friends.
Unrational, unreasonable and uncaring asshole dramafags make great friends.
Clearly you can't make new quality friends and you can't control who your friends are. (anyone wanna brush off the griffon?)
>Watch where you sleep
We can't make an episode about Rarity and Applejack working together as entrepreneurs.
Polar opposites can still get along…as well as the rest of the human race.
But seriously don't go marrying polar opposites, don't fucking do it.
>Season 3
Twilight has to do it alone. Because Celestia is insane and Twilight's friends are very annoying.
>Sweet and Elite
Acting like a senseless retard or a high snob is completely acceptable.
Laidback people that can tolerate this crap are cool…and boring.
Your friends embarrassing you in public is totally alright.

Agiri 354374

File: 1373931640348.png (169.48 KB, 316x370, Agiri contemplating.png)

>>354227

>Pretttty sure the moral (and the solution that resolved the problem) was to tell an authority figure and get their help.


Maybe to an already-rational adult, but for a child, it was way too convoluted and muddied for that point to get through.

>But wings are kickass and make you better.


Obviously, but that kind of contradicts the point they were trying to drive home in Hearth-Warmings Eve, doesn't it? If they wanted to be realistic, Earth Ponies would have been phased out by evolution long ago.

>>354294

>The moral was "It's okay to ask your friends for help and you shouldn't cut corners to succeed."


No, that was the moral they were GOING for. That's why we call it a "botched moral".

>Dog and Pony Show


How did I forget that one?! "If you get kidnapped, do your best to antagonize your kidnappers." That's a great way to end up on an autopsy table.

>>354366

I don't think show stoppers was a botched moral. Sure, you can learn new things, but if you're working with a dead-line, that's the time to stick to your strengths.

Anonymous 354377

>Bridle Gossip
My Little Zebra: Negroes Are Magic

Anonymous 354380

Agiri 354381

File: 1373932477776.gif (733.77 KB, 564x360, Rarity RD laugh.gif)

>>354377

The best part about that episode is that they WANTED to use real Swahili, but they didn't have time to research it, so they just made it African-sounding gibberish. Is it just me, or is that kind of offensive?

Anonymous 354382

File: 1373933868185.jpg (2.06 MB, 1992x1350, Rarijack big sisters.jpg)

>>354366

>We can't make an episode about Rarity and Applejack working together as entrepreneurs.


What synergy is there between apple farming and tailoring? Would you have Rarity do costumes for some kind of big apple event?

I guess they could file taxes together.

Agiri 354390

>>354382

As much as I hate to say it, Applejack being an entrepreneur would go against her character. I really wish they made her more free-spirited and cowboy-like, but instead they took her the HURR TRADITIONAL VALUES route. It just makes her so boring, and it's too late to do any kind of overhaul on her personality without contradicting the point they made in SSCS.

Anonymous 354423

File: 1373936661924.png (1.11 MB, 1400x1493, Braeburn YOUR BODY IS READY.pn…)

>>354390

>I really wish they made her more free-spirited and cowboy-like

Agiri 354428

File: 1373938167260.png (85.33 KB, 335x354, Cheerilee inebriated.png)

>>354423

Clearly, we need more Braeburn.

What if…
we had a Braeburn/Shining Armor episode?

Little girls need to start yaoi shipping some time.

Anonymous 354759

File: 1373990066327.jpg (13.82 KB, 350x211, MareDoWell.jpg)

>>354141
>No one here actually believes this show has consistently good morals, right?
No, I don't.

I'm surprised fans applaud the attempt at including them, because personally, I find the "lesson format" constraining, tiresome, and borderline preachy. The only thing that keeps it from crossing the line into full-preachiness is that the writers aren't heavy-handed with it.

I guess things have come full circle. I grew up at a time when cartoons like Fat Albert and the Cosby Kids laid on the morality with a spatula, thick enough to make you puke. Twenty years later, Animaniacs poked fun at such wearisome glop, not only with the "Wheel of Morality," but in other ways. Now, after yet another twenty years, the preaching is back, and young folks even like it. It's so old it's new again.

But who would expect a show that was really designed to function as an ad to be just entertaining? It only exists for purely mercenary purposes. I'm sure the Hasbro suits feel they have to atone for that somehow — or at least camouflage it.
This post was edited by its author on .

S1 Luna 354843

>>354390
Well… At least in the fanfiction department, we can at least quietly rectcon it to oblivion.

It would be as if it never happened.

Anonymous 354853

>>354390
>Applejack being an entrepreneur would go against her character.
Uh, she is an entrepreneur. All she was interested in at the Gala was selling apples and apple-related accessories. Whether her entrepreneurial talents come anywhere close to her farming abilities is a different matter (obviously they don't), but she is one.

Agiri 354862

File: 1373995924400.png (446.52 KB, 540x540, Trixie drink.png)

>>354853

The only reason she took that extra step is because Granny needed a new hip. She doesn't push herself to be creative or ambitious unless she's forced to. If she did, then she would do stuff like that on a semi-regular basis, but she doesn't.

She's simple. That's the whole basis for her character. They can mask it with words like "honest" or "traditional", but a rose by any other name…

Anonymous 354909

>>354862
>If she did, then she would do stuff like that on a semi-regular basis, but she doesn't.
She and her family were selling cider, too. I think what you're really seeing is this: business is boring, and unsuitable for an entertaining cartoon. We don't see Rarity dealing with customers unless the plot calls for it, either. We don't see much of Pinkie selling cakes. We hardly ever see what Dash does, which is strange now that I think about it, because it's at least visually exciting. I don't recall ever seeing Twilight check a book out to someone who had walked into the library. We don't even know how Fluttershy earns a living.

We might actually have seen more screen minutes dedicated to Applejack doing business than any of the others.

Agiri 354953

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>>354909

We don't see any of those characters doing their jobs much because they have lives outside of them. Applejack is defined by her job.

Now that you mention it, seeing Twilight interact with Library goers could actually pretty interesting.

And rarity's job gets a lot of attention because it actually involves creativity, it's not just mindless labor.

354976

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>>354909
>We hardly ever see what Dash does
Cause she gets it done in 10 seconds flat.

>I don't recall ever seeing Twilight check a book out to someone who had walked into the library.

Twilight is just living in the library, not running it. She has chosen the career path of the freeloader. For the record though, she's lent books out to the Cutie Mark Crusaders and Rainbow Dash.

>We don't even know how Fluttershy earns a living.

She is a breeder, board and groomer. We've seen her offer pets to Rainbow Dash and pick up Opal for a grooming appointment.

Agiri 354995

File: 1374005885131.png (25.47 KB, 945x945, Twilight shrug.png)

>>354976

Well, we never see any library employees, so she must be the one who runs it. Unless it runs on an honor system and people just shuffle in and out of her house at will

Scootapuff!saU4Tsd4dU 355031

File: 1374007551564.jpg (38.06 KB, 318x480, image.jpg)

Most of the "broken" morals only become so when one picks them apart with a fine tooth comb like are wont to do here on the interwebs. I think in most cases the kiddies get what they were aiming for.

Anonymous 355057

>>354976
>Twilight is just living in the library, not running it. She has chosen the career path of the freeloader.
She's a student, or was. I had a job as a librarian in college. Later, I looked into what it takes to be a librarian if you don't get the job through student employment (it's a quiet, pleasant job if you're a reader), and… WHEW! Better have a masters in Library Science, preferably a Ph.D.

Anyway, I assume she's a real librarian, same as I was, although the duties she delegates to Spike appear to be closer to what mine were. With the exception of telling Spike to put everything back in its place, we just don't see her doing it, because it does nothing to further the plot.

>She is a breeder, board and groomer.

We've never seen anything to indicate that she makes a living with that. We've seen plenty to indicate that Twilight's library position is basically "sweeping the gym" — a student job where you can slack off and get paid anyway, because your real job is being a gifted student or athlete.

>>355031
>I think in most cases the kiddies get what they were aiming for.
Sometimes the morals are really broken. The OP mentioned "Mare Do Well," although it's so bad he just glossed over it in passing. It serves as a postulate. One doesn't need to point out why it's an example, because the reason is self-evident.

"Mare Do Well" had the suckiest message of the series: if your friend is getting the Big Head, don't take them aside and tell them they're being a jerk. Gang up and Gaslight 'em. Concoct a baroque, elaborate (not to mention impossible) scheme behind their back to make them feel like they're absolutely nothing. Fuck with their head.

Scootapuff!saU4Tsd4dU 355059

File: 1374009584961.jpg (27.01 KB, 320x362, image.jpg)

>>355057
That's why is used the qualifier "most of course…

Anonymous 355060

>>355059
Mostly, they probably do, but even when the morals are okay, they often seem forced. It comes down to what I said here >>354759: in most cases, they should have dispensed with the letter to Celestia and settled for being entertaining. If there was a point, the kids got it long before the end of the episode, and if there wasn't, tacking some fuzzy-brained gobbledygook onto the end doesn't help.

Most of the show's writers are great with characterization, but with logic and plot, not so much.

Silver Strength!TwiDasH7n2 355062

File: 1374010511143.jpg (194.65 KB, 1600x1141, Spike lightning rod.jpg)

>>354976
>>354995

Checking out books is a menial task in Twilight's life. Therefore Spike does it.

Scootapuff!saU4Tsd4dU 355071

File: 1374010831722.jpg (36.33 KB, 324x320, image.jpg)

>>355060
To be fair, "logic" is sometimes hard to keep consistent when a force as amorphous as magic exists within the world you're creating.

And I think the show has ample amounts of plot.

Anonymous 355072

>>355062
She's the brains. Spike is the muscle… except it usually turns out that he can find things faster than she can. So can Pinkie, maybe because her brain is all random. I guess ponies never invented the Dewey Decimal System.

"It was under Eeeeeeeeee…"

Anonymous 355085

>>355071
>…"logic" is sometimes hard to keep consistent when a force as amorphous as magic exists within the world you're creating.
It's even harder when you have six or seven writers, one of them is Merriwether Williams, and Hasbro is constantly throwing you curve balls and saying "no" to scenes that are integral to the plot.

>And I think the show has ample amounts of plot.

It actually has very little, and some of the best episodes have none at all. Nothing wrong with that. It's at its strongest when it puts its characters in conflict and simply lets them have at it.

Heavy Mole 355097

File: 1374014154612.png (31.85 KB, 171x145, lucy158.png)

>>355085
When I think of a cartoon with "no plot", I think of something like a Wile E. Coyote cartoon–just a series of vignettes based on an initial premise. I actually think plot is an important element to this show, even though it's not usually based on plot "intrigue" ("That was a twist! What's going to happen next?")

The Person Who Posts As Fluttershy (Element of Self-descriptive Usernames) 355107

File: 1374014938325.jpeg (234.66 KB, 3188x1480, 278238__UNOPT__safe_fluttershy…)

>cherrypicking
>deliberate misinterpretation of the situations, the characters actions and their motivations
>overanalyzing of behavior unrelated to to the aesop while ignoring the actual moral
>legitimate criticism

Agiri 355109

File: 1374015612589.png (450.5 KB, 3000x3254, Twilight disgust.png)

>>355107

If you're going to come in here just to undercut the thread, at least bring a counter-argument you shithead.

Please explain to me how episodes like FPK, MMDW, Ticket Master and Super Speedy had good morals. That's more than enough examples to not be accused of "cherry picking".

The Person Who Posts As Fluttershy (Element of Self-descriptive Usernames) 355141

File: 1374018910200.jpg (213.12 KB, 750x1691, 3111__safe_twilight-sparkle_ra…)

>>355109
>4 episodes
>out of 65
>not cherrypicking

FPK, MMDW:
That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Ticket Master: No moral presented: closest thing to a moral is tht it's a presentation of why It's not nice to badger your friends or ask them to pick between you and their other friends.
as for "Why would you send the tickets back? Obviously, the rational thing to do is to sit down as a group and discuss who has the best reasons to go to. " The problem with that solution is that "who has the best reason to go" is totally subjective.
Super Speedy: Once again, no moral presented. In fact that is the point of the letter. Closest thing to a moral is "Doing a job quickly does not matter if you don't do it well."
>it's okay to give yourself an advantage if you're losing.
>misrepresentation: Applejack asked Flim and Flam if it was okay, they were fine with it.

355154

File: 1374019525708.png (534.09 KB, 3970x4520, sweetie14.png)

>>354995
>people just shuffle in and out of her house at will
That's pretty much what I pictured. Ponyville isn't big on reading though. And they have to stay out of her loft. That's private.

>>355057
>Anyway, I assume she's a real librarian
We've seen actual librarians in the series and comics though, which leads me to believe Twilie isn't one. I agree that she was a student, but that's not a job. Now, come Season 4, I assume she'll begin her role as Princess of Marketing.

>She is a breeder, board and groomer.

>We've never seen anything to indicate that she makes a living with that.
Sure we have. We just never saw her get paid. You have to assume that money in changing hooves for Opal's grooming. Rarity is the element of Generosity, not Fluttershy. Fluttershy needs cash. I would assume Rare has some periodic deal with her.

>>355062
Spike's job is clear. Do everything and don't grow up. Twilight can't be bothered with menial tasks. She needs to study friendship. Oh, and I think Celestia makes her read books too, in the one episode she spaced out it.

355159

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>>355141
>it's okay to give yourself an advantage if you're losing.
>misrepresentation: Applejack asked Flim and Flam if it was okay, they were fine with it.
This is true. There was no limit to the workforce the Apple's could use. Theoretically, they could have hired extra workers if they needed. It was their process vs. Flim and Flam's and the Apple's proved in Season 1 part of their process is asking friends for help in busy times.

Agiri 355162

>>355141

>That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.


I'm not wasting my time explaining the obvious. If you think those were good episodes, you're retarded

>No moral presented


The entire point of the show(or at least season 1, before they lost their educational status) is "hey little girls, learn from these characters". Twilight's solution to the problem presented was shit, therefor the moral was shit.

>The problem with that solution is that "who has the best reason to go" is totally subjective.


No shit? I thought everything in life was objective. That's the point of sitting down and talking it out like rational people, which they didn't do.

>"Doing a job quickly does not matter if you don't do it well."


The machine, when on it's normal setting, made cider just as tasty as hers, remember? That's exactly why the episode was stupid

>misrepresentation: Applejack asked Flim and Flam if it was okay, they were fine with it.


They shouldn't have and she should've lost, but then the writing team would've written themselves into a corner, wouldn't they?

Anonymous 355188

>>355154
>We've seen actual librarians in the series and comics though, which leads me to believe Twilie isn't one.
Why else let her take over the whole Ponyville Library? Sure looks like a work-study thing to me. I'll be the first to admit, we can't say what Twi's duties there are without a whole lot of fanwank and headcanon, but we've never seen another librarian, and it seems unlikely that the Mayor wouldn't bitch if Celestia said, "Your public facility is now Twilight's home. I'm taking it from your citizens and giving it to her."

That is, if one expects logic out of a cartoon.

>You have to assume that money in changing hooves for Opal's grooming.

I don't assume that, though. I do assume that Fluttershy is well-loved enough that she doesn't want for much, but she seems to be sort of a hippie. Before "Putting Your Hoof Down," I figured no one in Ponyville would give her any grief, and that most of the town would support her. She certainly seems lovable enough. I'm still not sure that isn't the case, because PYHD was a Merriwether episode, and Merriwether has an unfortunate tendency to turn everyone into jerks.

>>355162
>I'm not wasting my time explaining the obvious.
Bingo. My own philosophy is to write whatever I feel like writing, and to avoid getting caught up in arguing with trolls. In this post >>355057, for example, I said I took the awfulness of "Mare Do Well's" message as a postulate, and a postulate needs no further evidence. Most of your postulates are correct enough. It looks like you got sucked in.

Standard Troll Tactic:
> Anon: The sky is blue.
> Troll: Bullshit. Prove it. I want sauce on that. Prove to me the sky is blue.
> Anon: That is self-evident.
> Troll: HA-HA-HA! Typical blueskyfag! Can't support his argument! What a sperglord!
> Anon: Open the window and look outside, idiot.
> Troll: Now an ad hominem attack! How predictable! You've got nothin', retard. You blueskyfags can't even answer a simple question.
> Anon: I did not start the ad hominem attacks.
> Troll: Yes you did, blueskyfag. Your ilk always does. LOL! Can't support your argument, and can't engage in a rational debate. You blueskyfags are all the same!
> Anon: Fuck off, troll.
> Troll: (umad.jpg) Aww, somebody got assraped. Run, little blueskyfag. You lost this one before you even started! You are SO analravaged! HUEHUEHUEHUEHUE!

Homey don't play dat.

355191

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>>355188
>I figured no one in Ponyville would give her any grief, and that most of the town would support her.
I thought that too for a season and a half. Who would take money from Fluttershy? But is seems she does have to pay for her food, like everyone else, and breeding, board and grooming is the only job I can put to her, since Ponyville has their own vet.

Agiri 355201

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>>355188

>I don't assume that, though.


Not the person you replied to, but

It's probably like how Rarity didn't charge her friends for the dresses because they're friends, but for other people, Fluttershy probably asks for a little, just to support herself.

I do think she farms and lives off the land, so her expenses aren't high, but she must make SOME money, I would think.

355203

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>>355201
>It's probably like how Rarity didn't charge her friends for the dresses because they're friends
Because Rarrar is the element of Generosity! Flutters is Kindness. She asks them for money nicely.

Agiri 355210

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>>355203

She can ask for a good healthy dicking anytime she wants

Anonymous 355211

>>355191
> I thought that too for a season and a half. Who would take money from Fluttershy? But is seems she does have to pay for her food, like everyone else…
Same episode threw your headcanon for a loop, eh? I still don't take the first seven minutes of PYHD as indicative of Fluttershy's normal routine, because Merriwether. In fact, I would call those first seven minutes a disaster. That episode had a beautiful premise (courtesy of Charlotte Fullerton), but it suffered immensely on the road from treatment to teleplay.

In point of fact: we did not need to know that Flutters is a doormat. We already knew it. The cold open was enough to establish what the episode was about. I could have done without Angel bitch-slapping Fluttershy, too. Merriwether's writing is just mean.

Imagine how good PYHD could have been if it had gone right into Iron Will's seminar after the cold open. Flutters could have made a more gradual descent into nastiness. I do think she has that kind of rage in her — that was already established — but the script never explained it. For contrast, consider how well "Hurricane Fluttershy" explained why she's such a sad little bag of broken glass.

PYHD never showed us how Rarity and Pinkie got over being hurt, either. Flutters tore into them in a way that would shatter most friendships. It was Rarity's chance to shine: "Pinkie, you know Fluttershy has been badly mistreated. That wasn't really about us." It could have provided incredible character development for Flutters and Rarity both. Instead, it barely skimmed the surface, repeatedly devolved into slapstick, and gave us characters who were behaving in unbelievable ways.

Thaaaaaat's MERRIWETHER! She sucks. I don't take most of her shit as canon. I do my best to purge it from my head.

>>355201
>…she must make SOME money, I would think.
It would be realistic to think she receives some kind of stipend from Celestia's government, for… you know, HELPING TO SAVE THE FUCKING PLANET TWICE!

Agiri 355220

>>355211
>It would be realistic to think she receives some kind of stipend from Celestia's government, for… you know, HELPING TO SAVE THE FUCKING PLANET TWICE!

I doubt it. I think that's more of a "you have our generosity" thing, lol

Strangely enough, I don't think a side character has ever even mentioned it. In PYHD, that bitch even tried to rip Pinkie off on the god damn cherries or whatever it was.

Anonymous 355229

>>355220
> I think that's more of a "you have our generosity" thing…
Who knows? I've said elsewhere that they might have been better off leaving the whole "Magical Girl/Elements of Harmony" thing out of it. That might have been what Lauren originally wanted, but it is not where the series ended up. When they're not being awesome they're incredibly normal, and they're only awesome about…
> 10/65 = X/100…
…15.4% of the time, rounding up.

> In PYHD, that bitch even tried to rip Pinkie off…

Which bitch?

The Person Who Posts As Fluttershy (Element of Self-descriptive Usernames) 355231

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>>355188
>debate me
you have not presented an argument
>haha you're a troll!

>>355154
I think Twi is like a grad student, she probably gets her money from research grants or something like that. She has that lab in the basement which makes me think her research goes beyond just hanging out with the other cast members. I assume she must spend some of her time using her insights into friendship to expand the understanding of magic, the fruit of which we see as she develops new spells.

>>355211
>It would be realistic to think she receives some kind of stipend from Celestia's government, for… you know, HELPING TO SAVE THE FUCKING PLANET TWICE!
She could probably get a pretty good book deal.
This post was edited by its author on .

Agiri 355250

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>>355229

They really aren't that badass even in the season openings and finales, the only fight scenes in the entire series were the manticore fight in episode 2 and the changling battle.

The rest of the time they just use their deus ex machina AKA the elements, or they just run away.

Anonymous 355265

>>355250
I didn't necessarily mean fight scenes when I said "awesome." I figure their control of the Elements is awesome enough — lame and predictable, unless they can't use them and have to resort to something else, but awesome nonetheless.

For what it's worth, the ten episodes I was thinking of when I came up with 15.4% were…
> "Friendship is Magic" parts 1 and 2
> "The Return of Harmony" parts 1 and 2
> "A Canterlot Wedding" parts 1 and 2
> "The Crystal Empire" parts 1 and 2
> "Keep Calm and Flutter On"
> "Magical Mystery Cure"

The rest of the time, for all intents and purposes, they're just ordinary young women… er, mares. Even Twilight, though extraordinarily gifted, has hooves of clay. Contrary to many fans' fears, I don't expect that to change now that she has wings, even if she keeps them. She's always been a neurotic flibbertigibbet with more than a hint of OCD. Why change what works?

Scootapuff!saU4Tsd4dU 355280

File: 1374028296620.jpg (20.74 KB, 254x261, image.jpg)

I imagine with Twi being a Princess now the illusion of normality is either going to be cat aside or laughably maintained.

Anonymous 355293

>>355280
If it's handled right, maintaining it needn't be laughable. Cadance, though an alicorn, was normal enough to be doing menial work like babysitting. If Hasbro leaves them alone to do it (a very big "if," and one about which I am not optimistic) the writers can hold this development in the road.

Merriwether has damaged the characters worse. I can't explain anyone's behavior in "Mare Do Well" even with heroic levels of fanwank, unless I assume it was Dashie's bad dream.

Anonymous 355526

>>355293
>Cadance, though an alicorn, was normal enough to be doing menial work like babysitting.
Just one of the things that makes her a terrible character. Why would royalty be doing anything proletarian like babysitting in the first place, especially for a commoner. No, I'm not buying that it was somehow known that Twi would get wings and shit someday.

Anonymous 355527

File: 1374072982116.jpg (81.2 KB, 708x920, discotecnia_ottanta_sluttershy…)

>>354909
>We don't even know how Fluttershy earns a living.

Anonymous 355536

>>355526
>Just one of the things that makes her a terrible character.
She's not developed enough yet to tell.

>Why would royalty be doing anything proletarian like babysitting in the first place…?

Maybe because their rules for royalty aren't the same as ours. Meghan said it was a meritocracy, not a true monarchy. "Princess" seems to be an honorary thing that you can lose. Bloodlines don't necessarily count.

Anonymous 355537

File: 1374076663617.jpeg (162.69 KB, 1024x1365, 340970__suggestive_anthro_ship…)

>>355536

>'prince' is a hereditary title; you can be a douchebag and still be prince

>'princess' is an important merit-based position for the very pinnacle of Equestria

Sexism!

Anonymous 355538

>>355537
>Sexism!
It looks that way, but the truth is, I don't think they thought it through. Not even Lauren knew enough to say, "Alrighty then, it's a principality," when Hasbro rammed Celestia's title down her throat. They were probably still thinking in terms of it being a true monarchy when "The Best Night Ever" was written. Now, apparently, they are not.

Meghan has also said they take world-building seriously, and I think she's probably telling the truth, but you can't build a coherent world when the Hasbro executives are constantly throwing you curve balls. I do not envy her job.

Obviously Lauren doesn't either. She quit.

Anonymous 355541

File: 1374078235843.png (249.42 KB, 759x819, Twilight Princess eats a pretz…)

>>355538

Lauren also wanted Blueblood to be a Duke rather than Prince. Although that would've weakened the "handsome prince is not necessarily a good guy" fairy tale reversal.

I'm inclined to believe that the unicorn aristocracy are the descendents of their old monarchy, whereas the alicorn princesses are a separate thing; the title of 'princess' was used to provide authority that the unicorns would endorse.

Although I love the idea of 'prince' and 'princess' as unisex terms, wherein 'prince' is inherited whereas 'princess' is earned. So, Shining Armor might be a prince on account of marrying a princess, whereas if he earned his wings he would be a princess.

Anonymous 355618

>>355541
>I'm inclined to believe that the unicorn aristocracy are the descendents of their old monarchy, whereas the alicorn princesses are a separate thing; the title of 'princess' was used to provide authority that the unicorns would endorse.
It's as good as any headcanon. Apparently, not even the writers have the authority to establish canon. Whatever they come up with, the suits could overturn it. You can't do much world-building when Hasbro could rush in at any moment demanding that you feature some canon-smashing toy.

"Hey, check this out! This is Fluttershy's new pet. As you can see, he's a full-grown pink dragon. Write an episode around him."

"Yessir, yessir, three bags full!" …you retarded motherfucker! Do you even watch the show?

I doubt the writers care much about continuity anymore. Rainbow Dash is a pirate now? Okay, she's a pirate. Pinkie is a rock star? Cool. Applejack and Rarity are astronauts? Fine. They're leaving Earth with Applejack's parents, who have been out in space all this time? Whatever. Just give me my goddamn paycheck.

Anonymous 355844

To be perfectly honest the show was never that great of a cartoon to begin with. It is and always has been one big commercial. It's just cute.

Anonymous 355856

>>355844
Are you kidding? Its first season had the best character development I've ever seen in a Western cartoon. What surprises me is that it has fans who are completely tone-deaf to characterization, because that's 90% of it for me. The Mane Six came to seem so real, I forgot I was watching a series of 22-minute commercials. It had heart. Lauren and the writers obviously cared.

It's lost a lot of that, though. If they can't get it back on track in S4, I'll be done with it.
This post was edited by its author on .

Heavy Mole 355922

File: 1374111833571.jpg (6.9 KB, 194x259, lucy32.jpg)

>>355856
Style is substance on the internet. Entire books have been written about characters that have less than thirty seconds of screentime. It's strange to me, too.

Anonymous 356014

>>355536
>She's not developed
Exactly, there's nothing to her. Same with SA. They're just generic "nice" characters. Hell, background characters have more complex and interesting personalities, and that's without even taking fanon into account. That's how terrible she and SA are.

>Maybe because their rules for royalty blah blah

Yeah and maybe magic monkeys fly out of my ass. Or maybe it's just shit writing. Blandence and Boring Armor are the show's proverbial shark, it's been a nosedive since. On the bright side though I'm expecting S4 to continue the suck trend, so how badly can they disappoint me now?

Anonymous 356036

>>356014
>…background characters have more complex and interesting personalities…
What?

>That's how terrible she and SA are.

Ah, no. "Terrible" is what started happening to Pinkie, Dash, and Rarity in Season Two, and might not be repairable now. "Terrible" is when the writers have to pull Rarity out of "Spike At Your Service" and make Applejack the lead because they can't figure out how to write Rarity as anything but a cunt. "Terrible" is when you Flanderize and Rule-of-Funny your characters right into the ground at Mach 3. "Terrible" is when you fuck a character up so badly, and damage the audience's perception of her so much, the only solution is to kill her off.

Cadance and Shining Armor aren't "terrible." Cadance and Shining Armor have only been in a handful of episodes, and all but one were epic adventures, which never do much in regard to character development. Cadance and Shining Armor have potential, because they've never been broken. Pinkie, Dash, and Rarity have been steamrollered flat.

Scootapuff (no pics)!saU4Tsd4dU 356043

>>356036
Dash actually had a pretty damn strong S3. She's pretty much the only one that can claim that though…

Anonymous 356046

>>356043
>Dash actually had a pretty damn strong S3.
Better than her Rainbow Douchification from "May the Best Pet Wind" until "Hurricane Fluttershy" pulled her out of it, but she's still not the interesting character who hid her insecurities under false bravado in "Sonic Rainboom," and she probably never will be again. The most interesting aspect of her in Season One has been surgically removed.

And Pinkie and Rarity are now nothing but shallow comic relief.

Scootapuff (no pics)!saU4Tsd4dU 356050

>>356046
With a 26 episode season to work with this time (and a lot more time to flesh things out, as the writers I imagine weren't too involved in EQ) I am optimistic that things will turn out better this season.

Who knows though…

Anonymous 356053

>>356050
I hope so, but I won't be holding my breath, because Hasbro.

The CEO of Hasbro 356139

>>356053
I think you'll like it
everyone's going to be pink crystal alicorns

Anonymous 356174

File: 1374134894767.png (349.42 KB, 1087x475, Pinkie Pie sleeps on Rainbow D…)

>>356139

…dancing on rainbows.

Anonymous 356277

>>355856
You must not watch many Western Cartoons, because comparatively, this show is pretty shallow in that department.

Anonymous 356285

>>356277
Other than Avatar (as in "Airbender"), cite a better one, and explain why you think this one is shallow.

Agiri 356370

File: 1374183240124.gif (546.59 KB, 540x300, eyebrows.gif)

>>356285

I don't agree with that anon's assertion that FiM is shallow, I think that with-in it's limitations(having to be kid-friendly and more-or-less moral-oriented), it does a FANTASTIC job. However, if you ignore it's limitations and simply try to compare it on an even-basis, there are lots of cartoons that would beat it(not that I think it's fair to put a feather-weight against a heavy-weight)

Teen Titans probably being the best example. I've also heard that Wak-fu is great, but I haven't seen it

Anonymous 356446

File: 1374196373529.jpg (46.89 KB, 600x338, FluttershyEyeTunnel.jpg)

>>356370
>Teen Titans probably being the best example.
You think Teen Titans beats MLP:FiM? Are you sure you're not wearing nostalgia goggles?

I won't argue that Teen Titans wasn't good, but it played fast and loose with established characters, it treated Dick Grayson, Victor Stone, and Garfield Logan as if they had no identities outside of their roles as superheroes, it dimunitized and simplified them, and I hated the wild anime/manga takes. They knocked me right out of the stories. Admittedly, that last is a personal thing.

On top of that, I'm not sure it's fair to compare a show with a Y rating to one rated Y7FV. If Hasbro gave the ponies an age-seven-and-above rating with fantasy violence, I wonder what the writers could do with it.

Teen Titans had more intricate plotting and a bigger production budget, but with the exception of Raven (Tara Strong again), I don't think its characters hold a candle to MLP:FiM's. The ponies are all originals — even AJ and Spike were re-imagined — and they're more complex to boot.

At least, they were in the first season and some episodes in the second. I hope they get that back.

LyraTheFlirt!!Ah2q8cdspr 356456

>>356446
I don't think I can take my goggles off and it's bin awhile since I have seen the show, but I'd say Teen Titans goes on par with FiM. Teen Titans did have a more in depth plot and character then FiM, but the argument that it is limited in what it can do is a valid one. FiM already pushes the boarders with FV though. I'd imagine it would with the Wedding finale episode. That's it though.

I'm getting off topic. I was young when I watch TT but from my memory it did work well with plot and character development. They remained consistent and flowed smoothly.

Agiri 356457

File: 1374199516621.jpg (29.07 KB, 282x320, Twi and Trixie.JPG)

>>356446

>but it played fast and loose with established characters


I don't follow comics, so I wouldn't know, but I'd say that as long as they follow their own rules within their own universe, they're allowed to re-imagine characters

>On top of that, I'm not sure it's fair to compare a show with a Y rating to one rated Y7FV. If Hasbro gave the ponies an age-seven-and-above rating with fantasy violence, I wonder what the writers could do with it.


I agree with that, that's why I said it isn't fair to compare them. I judge ponies for what it is, and in those parameters it's great. But there's no freakin way I'd say ponies is better than Titans on an even comparison. Are you sure you aren't wearing fandom goggles?

> but with the exception of Raven (Tara Strong again), I don't think its characters hold a candle to MLP:FiM's


The problem with FiM's formula is that it often has to have a certain character(s) hold the the "idiot ball" for an episode. It's understandable, of course, because it's a moral-oriented show, but Teen Titan's is clearly out of FiM's league in this regard. Titans always found a way to include character conflict without making any one character be an idiot, which is why I loved it so much.

Anonymous 356478

File: 1374201520707.jpg (62.65 KB, 411x270, cyborigin.jpg)

>>356457
>Are you sure you aren't wearing fandom goggles?
No, but I might be wearing character goggles. The Titans are superheroes, and flat ones compared to their comic book counterparts. The ponies are basically just young women 85% of the time, and they really didn't start out holding the idiot ball that much. When Twilight carried it through most of "The Return of Harmony," then passed it to Discord at the end, that seemed to me like a harbinger of bad things to come, and it was. Anyway, I digress. I was pleasantly surprised when it turned out they weren't the stereotypes they at first appeared to be. Twilight was snarky and neurotic from the get-go, but every one of them turned out to have a dark side.

I'm probably also guilty of wearing Season One goggles. Unfortunately, Dash seems to have lost the insecurity that she covered up with false bravado (if it was going to show up again, the beginning of "Wonderbolts Academy" was the place for it to happen), Pinkie and Rarity have been relegated to shallow comic relief, and Applejack has played the same notes until they've become monotonous. Only Twilight and Fluttershy have retained their original complexity, and half the fandom is afraid that Twi is about to lose hers.

As I said here >>356446, I hope all of them get it back.

Scootapuff!saU4Tsd4dU 356588

>>356478
I liked it better when Twilight was naive but eager in WWU, rather than a teetering neurotic mess in S2 and CHOSEN ONE OF ULTIMATE DESTINY in S3.

Being new to her role as a princess will hopefully bring some of that element back.

The Person Who Posts As Fluttershy (Element of Self-descriptive Usernames) 356589

>>356588
If it does I'll take back everything I said about it.

Agiri 356590

File: 1374214307986.png (426.67 KB, 400x360, Pinkie party 10.png)

>>356478

>Dash seems to have lost the insecurity that she covered up with false bravado


You also don't want her to become a one-trick pony. If every Dash episode involves her being secretly insecure, she'll become as predictable and stale as Applejack and Pinkie.

Frankly, I find it totally believable that she's an extremely confident pony, they don't need to undermine one of her best traits unless there's a good reason.

>Pinkie and Rarity have been relegated to shallow comic relief


I agree about Pinkie, but at least when they use Rarity as a joke, they make it funny. Pinkie is just the same gag over and over again. They need to tone her down a little. "Fun loving" doesn't have to mean "loud and random all the time".

>pic related is when they actually wrote Pinkie with a little creativity


They took the "easy path" for writing Pinkie, which I find incredibly regrettable, because she's one of my favorite ponies.

>Only Twilight and Fluttershy have retained their original complexity


I agree, Flutters is a rare example of a well written shy character. When I first started watching this show, I never thought a shy character can be so funny.

One of the biggest laughs I got from this show was when the CMC were sneaking past her while she was laying on the couch, telling herself, "I'm good with animals, and I'm good with kids"

Anonymous 356594

File: 1374214576760.jpg (28.9 KB, 330x331, CrazyTwilight.jpg)

>>356588
Twilight has always been a teetering neurotic mess. She would have cracked as hard in "Swarm of the Century" as she did in "Lesson Zero" if she'd had time, and that was right before "Winter Wrap Up." She wasn't wrapped real tight in "A Bird in the Hoof," either. For once, Flutters was calm and Twilight was practically wetting herself. Celestia has had that effect on her more than once.

She very condescendingly gave Pinkie bad advice in "Griffon the Brush-Off," she was clueless about basic social stuff in "Boast Busters," she had to consult a book to throw a slumber party in "Look Before You Sleep," a phenomenon she couldn't explain drove her batshit crazy in "Feeling Pinkie Keen," and she went full-spaghetti-spewing-sperglord in "The Cutie Mark Chronicles." That girl has never been quite right. Anyone who thinks she's a Mary Sue is just not paying attention.

Scootapuff!saU4Tsd4dU 356595

File: 1374214895001.jpg (34.15 KB, 320x409, image.jpg)

>>356594
Never used that term because its horribly overused at this point and has really lost all meaning. And yeah, she had bouts of neuroticism here and there in S1 but it pretty much defined her whole character when she came into focus in S2. S2 also started the whole "universe bending over backwards so she can be right all the time" thing but I have rented about that enough I think.

Anonymous 356596

>>356590
>You also don't want her to become a one-trick pony.
I don't, but I don't want to see her out-of-character or Flanderized either. If there was ever a time for her to be nervous, trying out for her fucking heroes was it. However, that wasn't the only thing wrong with "Wonderbolts Academy." Thanks again, Merriwether!

It just mangled Pinkie, but you did a great job describing how Pinkie has been mangled in the rest of your post, and your illustrated example of that weird, out-of-left-field moment with the rubber chicken is perfect. Other than thinking Dash's deep-seated insecurity shouldn't be left lying in the dirt — not overused until it's a cliché, but not forgotten either — I agree with everything you said.

Anonymous 356598

File: 1374215916586.jpg (6.51 KB, 260x184, TwilightStoneSnail.jpg)

>>356595
>S2 also started the whole "universe bending over backwards so she can be right all the time" thing…
She's always been like that. I mentioned "Griffon the Brush-Off" and "Feeling Pinkie Keen," and those were two of the most glaring examples.

(An aside: in "Griffon the Brush-Off," when she, as the star of the show, gave Pinkie glib, logical-sounding, cartoon-clichéd, politically-correct, and COMPLETELY WRONG advice, that was one of my first big signs that this show was something special.)

Twilight has been a neurotic, obsessive-compulsive, socially-challenged sperglord from the get-go, and that's why I like her. All six of them are bent… or were. That's why the show is good.
This post was edited by its author on .

The Person Who Posts As Fluttershy (Element of Self-descriptive Usernames) 356599

File: 1374216123531.png (822.36 KB, 800x604, dash zonked out.png)

>>356590
>You also don't want her to become a one-trick pony. If every Dash episode involves her being secretly insecure, she'll become as predictable and stale as Applejack and Pinkie.
just because a character has a certain trait does not mean it i define them or that it needs to be the focus of all their episodes


>Frankly, I find it totally believable that she's an extremely confident pony, they don't need to undermine one of her best traits unless there's a good reason.

Look at her behavour in SRB. She's not extremely confident. She hides her insecurity by pretending to be confident. They would be undermining one of her best traits by making her suddenly confident.

Scootapuff!saU4Tsd4dU 356600

File: 1374216161298.jpg (41.49 KB, 448x459, image.jpg)

>>356598
…the part of my post you quoted had nothing to do with what you said…
This post was edited by its author on .

Anonymous 356601

>>356600
I don't follow you.

Scootapuff!saU4Tsd4dU 356602

File: 1374216650548.jpg (29.82 KB, 320x385, image.jpg)

>>356601
I was talking about shit like Lesson Zero where she basically gets away with mind rape, or how she acts like a completely tactless bitch in ACW but it just so happens that Cadence is actually an evil bug queen so her (in pretty much any other circumstance) wild accusation turn out to be right, or how it takes being seconds away from everything being obliterated by an amorphous cloud of darkness for her to stop being so damn myopic and let Spike help, then getting lauded for doing something anyone with an ounce of common fucking decency would've done…

Shit like that.

The Person Who Posts As Fluttershy (Element of Self-descriptive Usernames) 356603

>>356598
>Griffon the Brush-Off" and "Feeling Pinkie Keen
Sounds like your talking about Pinkie, not Twilight.

Anonymous 356605

>>356602
You're not describing stuff that's completely unprecedented, though. The stakes just got higher, and I'll be the first to admit, the writing got clumsier and more heavy-handed.

She didn't exactly "get away" with anything in "Lesson Zero," though. Celestia softened once she found out what was going on, but my God, the way she said "Twilight Sparkle!" when she first showed up made my blood run cold. Whoever thought a cutesy name like "Twilight Sparkle" could sound so chilling?

Regarding your other two examples, yeah, I think the writing there was dumbed down. I don't think any of that was out-of-character for Twilight, but it's handling was pretty clumsy and thumb-fingered.

>>356603
>Sounds like your talking about Pinkie, not Twilight.
No, I meant Twilight. In "Griffon the Brush-Off," she accused Pinkie of being jealous of Gilda and not giving her a fair shake, but Pinkie was right. Gilda really was a jerk. And in "Feeling Pinkie Keen," she refused to accept mounting evidence that Pinkie could do something she couldn't explain. In the end, it literally made her flaming mad.

In both cases she was trying, as Scootapuff put it, to make the universe bend over backwards so she could be right all the time. However, on those occasions, she was wrong.

Scootapuff!saU4Tsd4dU 356606

>>356605
Yeah I was more directing that criticism at poor writing than the character herself. I just wish they'd go back to showcasing her naivety rather than her neuroticism.

The Person Who Posts As Fluttershy (Element of Self-descriptive Usernames) 356607

>>356605
>In both cases she was trying, as Scootapuff put it, to make the universe bend over backwards so she could be right all the time. However, on those occasions, she was wrong.
I think scoot was talking about instances in which the universe had actually bent over, like in ACW.

Anonymous 356608

>>356606
>I just wish they'd go back to showcasing her naivety rather than her neuroticism.
They can do either one if they handle it with as much finesse as they generally did in the first season, but you won't hear any argument from me about the writing getting sloppy. It has gotten sloppy.

Take that bit you mentioned in "The Crystal Empire," for example. I had to watch it twice to be sure Celestia really did give Twilight stupid instructions. She did: her instructions were stupid. There was no reason for that. Anal-retentive and obsessive-compulsive as Twilight is, Celestia could have just told her, "You're in charge of this mission, Twilight. Even Cadance and Shining Armor have been instructed to follow your orders," and Twi could've gotten it into her head that she had to do everything herself just because of how she is.

Watching her go down that road into needlessly pushing herself too hard and pushing others away would have been a lot more interesting than most of the lame comic relief and needless songs that we got. Then, in the end, Celestia could have said, "You didn't fail, Twilight. You delegated. What do you think I do? Did I redeem my sister? Did I defeat Discord? No! I got you to do it. You're learning to be a leader, and that's what a leader does."

The frustrating part is that it didn't require a massive overhaul of the story, just a few tweaks to the dialogue.

>>356607
>I think scoot was talking about instances in which the universe had actually bent over, like in ACW.
Well, it didn't bend so much as it just turned out Twilight was right, but the writing really was blunt and heavy-handed. I had the feeling the Hasbro suits told Meghan, "Lauren isn't here to buffer you anymore. Remember, you're writing for three-year-olds. Stop being so subtle. Stop writing over their heads. Spell everything out and make it obvious. You've gotta hit 'em over the head with a brick."

S1 Luna 356610

File: 1374220533726.gif (1 MB, 160x160, 31987 - animated lily the_horr…)

>>355618
Indeed… And what troubles me is that a good majority of this fandom will follow whatever the show has, even if it is the stupidest bloody thing on the planet.

I dread what will happen if this somehow turns to G3 levels of garbage. If that happens, God help this fandom.

The Person Who Posts As Fluttershy (Element of Self-descriptive Usernames) 356611

>>356608
If I recall correctly the whole point of the mission was to test if Twilight would sacrifice her self interest to save the crystal empire.
There was even speculation that the whole thing was a illusion until Just for Sidekicks and Gmes Ponies Play

>>356610
it will still be a good source of reaction images

also g3 is fun with a group. we streamed "A Very Minty Christmas a while back and it was great.

Anonymous 356612

>>356611
>If I recall correctly the whole point of the mission was to test if Twilight would sacrifice her self interest to save the crystal empire.
That's what I thought too the first time I watched it, but I read where people were bitching and went back and watched it again. They were right. I had sanded over the rough bits in the writing with pure fanwank. Celestia really did tell Twilight in no uncertain terms that she had to do everything herself, and her delivery of the lesson at the end really was tangential and fuzzy-headed. It came off like a first draft that was rushed into production. It needed more work, and as I said here >>356608, what's frustrating is that it didn't need that much.

In the end, Celestia did praise Twilight for putting the Crystal Empire ahead of her own future, but it didn't come off as something she had planned as part of the test. It came off as… well, something slammed out for five-year-olds, with a lesson they'll never need at that.

Scootapuff!saU4Tsd4dU 356613

File: 1374223021095.jpg (27.01 KB, 320x362, image.jpg)

>>356612
Like I said, it came across to me as her being praised for doing something that anyone with enough neurons to form a synapse would've done in that situation. Like…no shit you "sacrifice" your interests in a situation when the whole goddamn country is at risk of being eaten by a shadow monster. That's not praiseworthy, that's common fucking sense.
This post was edited by its author on .

Anonymous 356614

File: 1374223713395.jpg (91.2 KB, 620x620, EvilTwiAndCelly2.jpg)

>>356613
Yes, but more importantly, the orders Celestia gave her at the beginning were stupid! I say it's more important because it forced Celly into that silly praise at the end. If Twilight had simply misunderstood what "you're in charge" meant, it could have told kids something valuable and avoided making Celly look like an idiot. It also could have provided the framework for a much more interesting story as Twilight blew one opportunity after another by pushing her friends away.

Thinking "you're in charge" meant "you have to do everything yourself" would not have made Twilight look like an idiot. It's a common misconception. President Jimmy Carter made the same mistake. He didn't know how to delegate. That job ate him alive.

The Person Who Posts As Fluttershy (Element of Self-descriptive Usernames) 356615

>>356613
It would be important to discern if someone in Twi's position was following the princess's instructions because they want to help others and someone doing it because it pleases their superior.

Anonymous 356616

>>356615
In Twilight's case, she's obviously scared stiff of Celestia, or she was. She must have gotten over that somewhat by the time she screamed at her in "Keep Calm and Flutter On."

The thing is, her fear of her mentor, the same thing that made her feel like she had to write a letter every fucking week, even though I don't recall Celestia ever telling her to, could have made her feel like she had to do everything whether Celly said she did or not.

But, Celly did tell her that, and no ruler who was worth squat ever would.

Anonymous 356623

File: 1374246462678.png (950.77 KB, 807x1700, Twilight's pillow.png)

>>356608
>The frustrating part is that it didn't require a massive overhaul of the story, just a few tweaks to the dialogue.

This. The core of Crystal Empire is strong, and hunting through the Empire's past (for information, and then for the heart) was pretty boss. Fix a handful of details and I'm all over that.

It's probably not possible for fans to edit the finished product to correct those faults, although we could do it as a 'novelized' episode.

>>356612
>It came off like a first draft that was rushed into production.

It probably was, since Megan stopped having a story editor and started being one.

>>356616

Aye, Celestia's the one who dropped the ball, and since she dropped it in a way that doesn't make sense, that means the writer dropped the ball.

Agiri 356626

File: 1374250295020.png (151.68 KB, 514x480, Egoraptor.png)

The reason the crystal empire episodes were, in my opinion, the worst two-parter by a wide margin, is the idiotic sub-plot about deceiving the crystal ponies. Not only did it remove 5 of the main characters from the actually-important events, but surely I'm not the only one who felt that it was a bit immoral. Why couldn't they just be honest? What kind of message is that?

HURR HURR CAN WE SEE THE THING

HURR HURR NO YOU CAN'T SEE THE THING

Anonymous 356629

File: 1374255036494.jpg (13.04 KB, 332x303, facehoof.jpg)

>>356626
You're right. It was a bad sub-plot. Think how much more interesting it would have been if Celestia had just said, "You're in charge of this one, Twilight," and that had led to conflicts with her friends. The silly vignettes that served no important part of the story could have been changed to Twilight not liking the way the others were doing things, and gradually taking everything on herself. Conflict is good.*

It still could have ended up with that final critical moment with Spike, and Twilight thinking she'd failed. That's just how Twilight is.

As things turned out, the ending slapped me upside the head. Celestia actually agreed that Twilight had failed, but passed her anyway. What? In no scenario, real-world or fantasy, could that outcome have been considered a failure. Under no circumstances, when the outcome was that important, would Celestia have told Twilight she had to do everything herself in the first place.

*I put an asterisk on conflict is good because I wouldn't be surprised if Hasbro's meddling crippled the script. We know Lauren had already gone head-to-head with them over conflict. They didn't want any. She told them good stories were impossible without it. She won that round, and Dash called Twilight an egghead in "Fall Weather Friends."

Until someone proves otherwise, I put most of the dumbing-down of this series at Hasbro's door.

Anonymous 356638

File: 1374257358701.jpg (64.95 KB, 604x500, capt-obv.jpg)

>>356629
>Until someone proves otherwise, I put most of the dumbing-down of this series at Hasbro's door.

Anonymous 356640

File: 1374257735355.jpg (7.93 KB, 180x243, CaptObvious.jpg)

>>356638
It was necessary to say that, unless we left the chattering parrots who blame Meghan back on /mlp/.

The Person Who Posts As Fluttershy (Element of Self-descriptive Usernames) 356641

>>356640
she's still responsible for not standing up to them

Anonymous 356642

File: 1374258217124.jpg (66.94 KB, 1280x720, LaurenCouldntStopIt.jpg)

>>356641
Uh-huh, and guess what happens to those who do, even if they performed a miracle and resurrected Hasbro's dead-and-stinking brand.

Meghan would be over at Disney begging Craig for a job on Wander Over Yonder so fast it would make your head spin. Hasbro left the creative team mostly alone through development and a few weeks into the first season, because the property they were working on was shit, but it's not shit anymore, and the giant is awake.

You don't corporate employment, do you?

LyraTheFlirt!!Ah2q8cdspr 356643

File: 1374260367210.png (82.17 KB, 489x426, 1358302589075.png)

>>356640
God forbid anybody makes their own opinion about things rather then just taking the opinions that are excepted as the norm around there.
>>356642
I couldn't agree more. Hasbro cares too much about money, they don't even realize how much of a grave they are digging.

Has Lauren ever openly and blatantly stated she left because their creative freedom was being taken away?

Anonymous 356644

>>356643
>Has Lauren ever openly and blatantly stated she left because their creative freedom was being taken away?
I doubt she would even if that were the case. Either from not wanting to break some sort of agreement, or from just wanting to be professional about things and not try to sling mud.

Anonymous 356647

File: 1374264343868.png (26.91 KB, 813x583, LaurenResigns.png)

>>356643
>Has Lauren ever openly and blatantly stated she left because their creative freedom was being taken away?
>>356644
>I doubt she would even if that were the case.
She did, though. She said it on her DeviantART page when she announced her resignation. See attached. She just did it in a way that didn't sound bitchy: "Various circumstances with the production made it increasingly impossible for me to keep up the level of personal creative involvement and control that I had at the start of the series." Anyone who has ever done creative work in a corporate environment knew exactly what she meant.

If that wasn't enough, there was also "Suited for Success," which was a thinly-veiled lampoon of what Hasbro was doing. The writers have acknowledged that. I saw what they'd done when it first aired, and I cheered. The lines in "Art of the Dress"…

All we really want is indecision
All we really like is what we know


…are an inside joke to people who work in creative professions, but the kiddies wouldn't know that.

Probably, neither did Hasbro.

Scootapuff!saU4Tsd4dU 356696

File: 1374277838639.jpg (39.67 KB, 320x373, image.jpg)

Hey, a 100 post+ non-PAD thread on /pony/! Holy shit!

Anyway, as to the current discussion, I think the problem is that Hasbro doesn't understand what has made this brand revival so wildly successful; which was the hands-off approach that was taken during the early stages of this thing. Letting the creative team work it's magic freely is what built this thing into the cultural phenomenon that it became. And what Hasbro also seems to not realize is that the nuanced characterization and subtle plot threads AREN'T detrimental to the kiddie's enjoyment of the show; it isn't necessary to "dumb things down" so they can understand it.

Anonymous 356780

File: 1374285801916.jpg (56.76 KB, 640x360, InbredRetards.jpg)

>>356696
>…it isn't necessary to "dumb things down" so they can understand it.
No, it isn't. In the first place, kids are far, far smarter on average than most adults give them credit for. They're as smart as adults in the sense that they have the same amount of raw processing power; they just don't have as much junk stored on their hard drives. And in the second place, the slow kids who don't get it will enjoy it for the color and movement and nice voices and pretty ponies, same as they do now, and the same as slow adults do. Some won't get it no matter how much they dumb it down. That goes for dumb children and dumb adults both.

Education and life experience do not make a fool smarter. They just make an educated fool. We've all met them.

Finally, executives have no business calling artistic shots. Most executives are not artists. Most executives will never be artists. Most executives wouldn't know good art if it bit them on the ass. The two very different sets of talents that make one a good executive or a good artist are almost mutually exclusive, although very rarely some exceptional individual will come along who has both. For the most part, however, if executives had any creative talent, they would not be executives.

Unfortunately, the same principle works both ways. Most artists are terrible at amassing and hoarding money and power, and at manipulating people in Machiavellian ways. They don't care about such things. That's why creative people are legendarily poor and powerless, and why they get screwed over so often.

Executives are natural born screwers. That is the talent that we, as a species, have chosen as the primary criterion for alpha status. Real smart, huh?

Agiri 356821

File: 1374289358140.png (364.84 KB, 1120x746, Lauren quote 03.png)

>>356780

>In the first place, kids are far, far smarter on average than most adults give them credit for. They're as smart as adults in the sense that they have the same amount of raw processing power; they just don't have as much junk stored on their hard drives.

>Education and life experience do not make a fool smarter. They just make an educated fool.

I couldn't have said it better myself, this is so true. My younger siblings(13 and 11) are far more wise than many adults I've met, their lack of life experience doesn't change that.

The problem we see here is the same problem that's plaguing the AAA game industry. It's all about "focus groups" and "broadening the audience", but what they don't realize is that focus groups are a TERRIBLE way to find out what people want.

You can't produce art systematically, because "systematically produced art" is an oxymoron. That's why the only way to produce consistently good art(from the PoV of a corporation) is to hand the reigns over to a creative genius with a vision and stand the fuck out of their way. That's how Star Wars was made.

Scootapuff!saU4Tsd4dU 356829

File: 1374290969256.jpg (19.6 KB, 209x296, image.jpg)

>>356821
To be fair, Star Wars was kinda ruined by its "creative genius" as well as time went on. I agree with the sentiment though.

Anonymous 356849

File: 1374292384502.png (187.92 KB, 890x1003, Equestria Girls Rainbow cat.pn…)

>>356780

Executives are people who organize other people. Have you never met a high energy badass who doesn't do any of the ground work themselves yet somehow always makes sure everything gets done? That person matters.

…which is not to say there aren't plenty of manipulative bottom feeders leeching and fucking up good things.

>>356821
>I couldn't have said it better myself, this is so true. My younger siblings(13 and 11) are far more wise than many adults I've met, their lack of life experience doesn't change that.

It's easy to get a skewed view of human intelligence, since the people you interact with will tend to be your baseline.

Agiri 356861

>>356849

That, and the type of people who get elected in politics.

Both of which point to a very grim and depressing conclusion.

357036

>>356821
>George Lucas
>creative genius
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAno. He appropriated from multiple sources and was fortunate enough to be surrounded by the right people at the right time. These people who were also able to say "No George, that's stupid, don't do that" back then.

Anonymous 357088

>>357036
All creative people "appropriate from multiple sources." There is nothing new under the sun, just new ways of putting the pieces together. I'll be the first to admit that Lucas is not a great writer (Harrison Ford said he should be tied up and forced to recite his own dialogue), but he directed the first Star Wars film with so much energy, and paced it so well, that it hardly mattered.

He neither wrote nor directed the second film, The Empire Strikes Back, and while it's more intelligent and original than the first, it is not the classic that the original is. If you don't like that, take it up with the public.

The original Star Wars is a classic precisely because it was derivative. Its plot could have been lifted right out of a beginner's book on how to write a script. Its characters were archetypes, pure cardboard. It showed us things that had been described in books by Robert A. Heinlein, Arthur C. Clarke, and Isaac Asimov thirty years before, but nobody had ever depicted a binary star system or a jump into hyperspace on film. The most that had been done was to mention it in the dialogue and let the audiences' imaginations take it from there.

People prefer derivative works. That's why fanfic gets more readers than original fiction by unknown authors, and why Hollywood is eaten up with sequels and remakes. Taking a chance on unknown authors and filmmakers is risky. Getting to know new characters, new worlds, and new situations is too much work. People want to turn their brains off and be entertained. They don't want to think.

I've heard "George got too big for anyone to tell him no" before, but it's just a parrot squawk as far as I can tell — one of those rumors that get passed around until they become something "everyone knows." Maybe it's true and maybe it isn't, but I do know this for certain: he was in his early thirties when he directed Star Wars. He was about fifty-five when he made The Phantom Menace. As people get older, they lose their edge. If you haven't made it in a creative profession by the time you're forty, chances are you never will.
This post was edited by its author on .

Anonymous 357622

>"If you're being bullied, come up with some stupid convoluted plan that hinges on an assumption that was already proven false earlier in the episode(that bab's would give two shits about their stupid float)". Considering how confusing the topic of bullying can be to a young person, muddying the waters with bullshit is not a good way to go.

The moral was that this was the WRONG thing to do.

Anonymous 357629

>>357036
Well… I will be kinder than that to Mr. Lucas.

The George Lucas who gave us THX-1138 and American Graffiti was a visionary genius. Then he made Star Wars and he's been plagiarizing himself, doing sequels of sequels of sequels of sequels, and turning his work into depressing self-parody ever since.

Anonymous 357665

>>357629
It probably doesn't help that since Star Wars, everything Lucas has touched, with the sole exception of his other sequel-factory franchise Indiana Jones, has bombed at the box office.

He's tried to do other stuff. But if the film doesn't involve spaceships or fedoras, George Lucas is box-office poison. See also, "Ishtar." See also, "Howard the Duck." See also, "The Radioland Murders." The fanboys have spoken.

Anonymous 359490

File: 1374683196498.jpg (40.12 KB, 500x640, 1324353465467567.jpg)

http://pastebin.com/CQgAG4fc

Thank you, gentlemen.

Anonymous 359845

>>354377
>Why Applejack is adorable

Agiri 359847

File: 1374712980164.png (655.17 KB, 1024x3608, HHHNNNGG.png)

>>359845

That's not how you spell Applebloom

Agiri 360352

File: 1374779373198.png (193.17 KB, 566x475, Rarity paper.png)

Thought of some more examples

Sisterhooves social - "The best way to handle a complex interpersonal issue is with a convoluted plan that centers around deceit" (See also: MMDW)

A friend in deed - "If someone doesn't want to be your friend, pry into their personal life!"

Anonymous 360910

File: 1374869244368.jpg (77.53 KB, 640x640, 1366577936227.jpg)

>>359847
>Why MINI Applejack is adorable

Anonymous 365017

>>360352
This is dumb.
Twisting around messages to make them sound bad by resolutely ignoring that this is a show and resorts to unreal circumstances to tell its story is ridiculous

Agiri 365021

File: 1375309081009.png (25.47 KB, 945x945, Twilight shrug.png)

>>365017

Yes, the show has unreal circumstances because it's job is to entertain. That doesn't change the fact that this often leads to fucked and/or unclear morals.

With something like morals, you shouldn't do it at all if you're not gonna do it right.

Anonymous 365023

>>365021
Ot you could trust children to discern the fantastical elements of the show from the serious.
In fact, the reason why they explicitly state the morals is to clarify them.

Kids are good at this.

Agiri 365033

File: 1375310197811.png (446.52 KB, 540x540, Trixie drink.png)

>>365023

A lot of times the "letter to Celestia" segments have very little to do with the actual episode.

A Friend in Deed is a good example. The moral was supposedly "some friends just want to be left alone", but the way she resolved the plot was by doing the exact OPPOSITE of that.

The point is, the writing staff on FiM has their set of strengths, and writing morals just isn't one of them.

Anonymous 401796

>>354141
>No one here actually believes this show has consistently good morals, right?
I don't, but it doesn't matter. The "lessons" thing is there to please concerned parents' groups. Kids don't learn ethics from a cartoon. The lessons are aimed at busybody parents the same way that bone-shaped dog biscuits are aimed at human consumers. The kids and the dogs don't care.

Anonymous 402348

>>354141
You're all here for your own reasons, ponyfag.

That Sporadic Anon 402381

>>401796
>Kids don't learn ethics from a cartoon. The lessons are aimed at busybody parents
If it's done in entertainment, then take it as ENTERTAINMENT. ….so, please don't, take it, any other way.

Anonymous 402412

File: 1379991892377.jpg (32.8 KB, 397x280, Cuties.jpg)

>>402381
>If it's done in entertainment, then take it as ENTERTAINMENT.
It's actually done as an ad, so should we take it as an ad?


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