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File: 1356240873439.png (250.37 KB, 1306x856, 132625374112.png)

2689

Okay people. I just watched the trailer for the Bronycon documentary, and I noticed something that really bugs the crap out of me.

So, at the convention, as with all cons, you see artists of all types being showcased. Artists like John Joseco, amateur VA's like RinaChan, musicians like Mandopony, EurobeatBrony and the like. All these artists got their moment in the spotlight, and deservedly so. They are extremely talented, and deserve every ounce of adoration they get.

But where was AstheticB? Why no nterviews with Pandora Prancypants? How come we don't get to hear about the latest plans for Pen Stroke, midnightshadow, or Loyal2Luna? We get no info on upcoming stories from soundslikeponies or Golden Vision, and you can forget about the latest bit of fiction from Guesswork.

Why not? Because, as we all know, fan fiction is nothing but shameless self-insert clop written by pathetic neck beards who live in their parents basement writing stories about Rainbow Dash falling in love with their OC alicorn.

Why is fan fiction always relegated to the bottom of the bin? No, wait, scratch that. It's not even IN the bin! Anytime you hear about fan made content, you hear all about animation, music, and artwork. But you never hear about fan made fiction. Why? I'm not talking about half the crap that gets in the featured box. I'm talking about people like the above authors, who spend countless hours slaving over the keyboard making our work as good as we can make it. That true artists of the printed medium never get recognition is a damn tragedy.

And before you even say it, no, I'm NOT talking about myself. I fully realize that I'm not some master artisan. I'm good, and I work my ass of to be as good as I can, but I'm not good enough to get printed. Stories like The Immortal Game, Flight of The Alicorn, if you removed any reference to pony, they could easily be published. they have the level of polish that most only dream of. But, will THEY get a booth in Artist's alley at Bronycon? Will THEY get recognized in the documentary?

>pic related


God damn shame.
This post was edited by its author on .

2690

Same reason why you see pop stars and actors on T.V. but rarely ever famous authors. I don't think it has anything to do with the general perception of fanfiction.

That aside authors are somewhat more reclusive than other artists. It's like, "Why should I show up in some documentary, rather than write an essay or editorial on whatever needs to be said?"
This post was edited by its author on .

Demetrius!WDFBcC5x22 2692

File: 1356244342990.png (499.6 KB, 917x826, Screenshot - 12222012 - 10:21:…)

Written works don't jump out at you with sound and visuals, but require some patience. Enjoyment of a written work takes place over a period of time that is at least thousands of times greater than enjoyment of a jpeg or video. Thus, because written work requires some effort to enjoy (to say nothing of the illiteracy epidemic) it's not touted because it's not immediately visible or accessible, especially in the medium of the screen (i.e. in the documentary).

It's a life of quiet dignity.

Tactical!fRainBOoMw 2694

Few reasons, in my opinion.

One: Because fanfiction's reputation is wholly deserved. It's a very tight in-group who can talk about Short Skirts and Explosions and have everypony in the conversation nod along because they also know how great he is.

As far as everyone outside that group knows, fanfiction is self-insert clop written by pathetic neckbeards. I felt that way for a long time. They're just stories written by ham-fisted amateurs; what appeal could they possibly have? Even from inside that group—and this is why I say the reputation is deserved—fanfiction may be the world's single greatest example of Sturgeon's Law. Anyone who can piece together some vague mockery of a sentence can write fanfiction if they feel like it. Even some people who aren't capable of writing anything that has a right to be called a sentence will write fanfiction anyway.

Two: Basically what >>2692 said. Music and whatever are enjoyable with no kind of investment on the viewer's behalf. Reading a clop short that's <10k words long takes an amount of time that would turn a lot of people away from watching a youtube video. Not only that, but half the time said fanfic has a much deeper connection to canon/fanon than a video or comic or whatever would. It's a completely different artform.

>It's a life of quiet dignity.

Whatever makes you feel better about it.
This post was edited by its author on .

2695

File: 1356245870968.png (124.99 KB, 680x769, 21n4qdh.png)

>>2689
>Golden Vision
>true artist of the printed medium
>master artisan

;-;

Ion-Sturm 2696

File: 1356246553666.gif (386.8 KB, 476x556, hZlfb.gif)

>>2689
>Pen Stroke
kil1 urslf faget
Besides the above and MidnightShadow, I haven't heard of any of those authors. The fact that you didn't list Kkat or Jetfire, two of the writers that actually made something at least nearing professional work, is criminal.

Also, there's a lot more bad fanfiction than bad art, or at least, the bad fanfiction is a lot easier to find.

Eustatian!Wings60m9. 2697

Chill, Jake. The Immortal Game isn't all that good. Haven't read Flight, so no opinion on it.

The truth is, we're only rarely at the level of published writing, even "good" authors like you mentioned, or Kkat, or even my personal favorites like Cold in Gardez. I've been listening to an audiobook of Cryptonomicon during my commute, and Stephenson puts us all to shame.

That's because pros spend more time, buy more and better editing support, and dispose of more mediocre byproduct than we do.

2698

>>2697
Well, that comparison doesn't really work. Other brony artists aren't making stuff on the same level as professionals either.

Obviously we're amateurs. We'd be getting paid if we weren't.

Ezn!RAopYJNHZ6 2699

You wanna convince someone that all fanart isn't terrible? Show them a good piece of fanart. You wanna convince someone that all fanmusic isn't terrible? Play some good fanmusic.

You wanna convince someone that all fanfiction isn't terrible? You're gonna have to convince them to spend a non-negligible amount of time reading X, Y or Z greatest fic ever. But which one?

Fallout: Equestria? Only hits its stride 20 chapters in.
Background Pony? Too damn overblown and purple.
It's a Dangerous Business, Going Out Your Door? Starts slow, has plotholes you gotta just ignore.
Sunny Skies All Day Long? Would work better as an animated episode, so let's watch one of those instead.
The Best Night Ever? Let's just watch Groundhog Day again.
My Little Dashie? You do want to convince them that fanfiction isn't terrible, right?

I like reading fanfic because I really like reading, and because I can set aside the flaws of most of these stories and just enjoy them for what's good about them and for (very often) being the kinds of stories that you just wouldn't see in print. Things like Fallout: Equestria and Background Pony have far more in common structurally with hour-long TV serieses than novels. And if you want to read a short story you have to buy a whole anthology of them. And then there's the way that fics can just trust the reader already knows X, Y and Z about the characters… But I'm digressing.

Fanfiction is harder to get into than fanart or fanmusic or any of that by an order of magnitude. Anyone will listen to a song or look at a picture, but most people don't really like to read (for various reasons, but that stupid look and say teaching technique they use/have used in some education systems is the one that boils my blood the most). And even with those who do, the amount of time you spend reading something magnifies its flaws to a degree that doesn't happen when you spend half a second looking at a picture.

But I have spent far more time reading fics than looking at fanart or listening to fanmusic, and I'm definitely going to remember and think about The Carnivore's Prayer and A Cup of Joe and Memories of Those Friends Who've Gone Before Us an awful lot longer than any of those pictures in yesterday's Drawfriend. The fic crowd is smaller and lesser known than all those other types, but our engagement runs deeper. I'll bet you fewer goats have been sacrificed to JJ than to SSnE.

So in the end I see your point and find that I don't think it matters. Pen and Ponydora and all those guys have plenty of fans who love their stuff and enjoy reading it, and that is good enough. Writing just isn't as flashy as those other things and it doesn't need to be, because if you take the time and effort to get into reading it'll give you far more than looking at a picture.

And being brony famous doesn't matter anyway. Just do what you enjoy and enjoy what you do, because you're not getting paid for this and fame won't make you happy.

Azusa!fG2qnvpWXU 2700

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>>2690
>>2694
I think it's more about how school teachers take the fun out of reading once you move out of middle grade books. Luckily this is happening less and less nowadays.

>>2699
>You wanna convince someone that all fanfiction isn't terrible?
Done: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-jGp0OxMOY

Hmm, we could make our own documentary. We'd each find a camera, show how ponies and fanfic have changed our lives, and then post it online.

Or we could write a collection of pony-fied memoirs and post those online.

2706

File: 1356281962424.jpg (26.01 KB, 636x265, Pinkie.JPG)

ITT: Cassius makes a rambling post that he didn't bother checking over.

I believe it is several reasons, most of which have already been pointed out by people already, but allow me to condense it into a list that is easily understood and readily view-able to summarize these points.

1. Fan-fiction is bad.

Unlike music or art, which generally are attempted by people who are at least somewhat in the know, any asshole and his mother thinks he can write. This becomes a recognizable problem on sites like FF.net where nearly everything is complete and utter shit to the point where nobody wants to go there. Fan fiction has a reputation of being terrible, and showcasing it often causes the rolling of eyes and scoffing.

2. Fan fiction isn't easily presentable.

Unlike music or art, written works are difficult to sample for advertisement. With an artist, you can put up a few pictures while the interview is ongoing, play some music with a musician. You can't exactly read an excerpt from a fan fiction and expect it to have the same impact as it would as reading it context.

3. Talent is hard to qualify.

Most people don't know jack shit about writing. However, provided point one, they're more than willing to assume something is shit because it's fan fiction than not. Typically, this will result in an underwhelming experience when attempting to tote something as the best work of fan fiction.

Similarly, choosing someone well-known will cause a backlash from the established community of those in the know. Would any of us be pleased if Rob Cakeron was interviewed for MLD? Because that's the first person a potential interviewer would bee-line for.





>AstheticB

>Pandora Prancypants
>Pen Stroke
>midnightshadow
>Loyal2Luna
>soundslikeponies
>Golden Vision
>Guesswork

Not

>Cold in Gardez

>SSnE
>Somber
>Chris

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to bash on the above authors, but they're a far, far way from being publishable, mostly because that group is fairly young and have not studied writing academically like the second list. Gardez is 33, GV is 17 or something. Once again, no offense intended to GV, but there's definitely some disparity in terms of their abilities.


Your list of nigh-perfect fics leaves much to be desired.

dolfeus!doseuxbE3s 2708

File: 1356284515471.jpg (27.01 KB, 356x462, 7395675_gal.jpg)

Many of the above points are quite right, I think, and they address the issue sufficiently. So, I think I'll put in something about published authors vs. non-published authors.

One thing to note: Everyone and their dog wants to publish their novels. Some— nay, most of it is crap, a la Sturgeon's law. But the publishing field has a high barrier-to-entry. I mean, a really, really high barrier to entry. Think EquestriaDaily, airlifted to the top of a mountain, gilded with spikes, alight with the eternal flame of prospective writers' suffering.

Now what is the barrier-to-entry on FiMFic? You have to be able to write a sentence, connect those sentences into something which resembles a story, and then do that for one-thousand words. A marked difference, yes!

(If you don't believe me that original fiction can be just as crap as fan-fiction, http://www.fictionpress.com/ is FF.net's sister site for original works.)

And that's all I have to say about that.

>>2700

You do realize that the production value of the video is now entangled in how enjoyable the story is, right?

>>2697

>buy more and better editing support


Newsflash: That's called a scam.

A word to the wise: Never, ever pay to be published (and this includes anything from literary agents to "editing services" offered by publishers or third-parties). If you can't earn it through the proper channels, your book ain't going to be bought.

Demetrius!WDFBcC5x22 2711

File: 1356286318393.png (78.45 KB, 450x334, stogie.png)

>>2706
> Unlike music or art, which generally are attempted by people who are at least somewhat in the know, any asshole and his mother thinks he can write.
I'm inclined to think that writing is the only creative outlet for the many thousands of bronies who have zero talent in drawing, music, or other arts/crafts (but know how to mash a keyboard). They crave some attention for the ideas stewing in their brains. It finally makes sense why so many authors get overly butthurt about Equestria Daily's dubiously high standards; that's the only possible way said people would ever reach a broader audience as opposed to being lost in a sea of other mediocre fics on ff.net or fimfiction. Are they entitled to that? Should they be featured in a documentary? No and no. The barrier to writing is far lower, so that category of fan-made work accumulates far more sophomoric and dilettantish flotsam.

Also, we've been saying the same thing over and over in this thread, but in different ways. The point that has been made is the best explanation for why fanfiction is never mentioned in documentaries or interviews, I believe. A compendium:
>>2692
> Enjoyment of a written work takes place over a period of time that is at least thousands of times greater than enjoyment of a jpeg or video. Thus, because written work requires some effort to enjoy…it's not touted because it's not immediately visible or accessible, especially in the medium of the screen (i.e. in the documentary).
>>2694
> Music and whatever are enjoyable with no kind of investment on the viewer's behalf. Reading a clop short that's <10k words long takes an amount of time that would turn a lot of people away from watching a youtube video.
>>2699
> Anyone will listen to a song or look at a picture, but most people don't really like to read…And even with those who do, the amount of time you spend reading something magnifies its flaws to a degree that doesn't happen when you spend half a second looking at a picture.
>>2706
> Unlike music or art, written works are difficult to sample for advertisement. With an artist, you can put up a few pictures while the interview is ongoing, play some music with a musician. You can't exactly read an excerpt from a fan fiction and expect it to have the same impact as it would as reading it context.
This post was edited by its author on .

2716

>Writing is the only creative outlet for the many thousands of bronies who have zero talent in drawing, music, or other arts/crafts (but know how to mash a keyboard).
Most of us have the happy circumstance of having practised writing for a lot of our lives, especially so if you make extensive use of the Internet. In comparison, I've barely drawn any pictures before, and have never made even the faintest attempt at studying the subject. Similarly there are a lot of people who have never had any training is music and have barely ever used an instrument before.

For these people, starting at square one won't get them very far. On the other hand, most of us have some sort of groundwork to go with when it comes to writing.

>Unlike music or art, which generally are attempted by people who are at least somewhat in the know, any asshole and his mother thinks he can write.

Maybe half true. I think the real situation is less the barrier to entry, but more that beginning writers actually can't tell that their stuff isn't very good. On the contrary, if I draw a picture right now, I could say with total certainty it looks awful. It probably wouldn't even look like what I was trying to draw. But that drawing is probably as good as an author's first story.

There are as many "assholes" with no knowledge on the subject using ponies as their first creative outlet in every artistic area of the fandom. Only, the budding writers have more confidence in their stuff, because they can't quite tell how crap it is (yet). That's why you see more of it.

I'd say there is a lower barrier-to-entry in terms of production value, though. Musicians have to get sound recording equipment, instruments, software. Artists have to get drawing equipment, software. All writers really need is Notepad.

Azusa!fG2qnvpWXU 2721

Hmm, they did mention fanfic a little on The People Vs. George Lucas and this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PkrZ0y0o_0

>>2706
Dang it, Cassius, you jinxed it. Now they probably will have Rob on.

I'm not sure if I understand your list. Do you mean to say that the last four are ready to be published?

2722

>I'm not sure if I understand your list. Do you mean to say that the last four are ready to be published?

Some are at least fairly close by comparison. But no, that's not what what I meant.

MintyRest!xMcCHESToY 2725

File: 1356301394243.jpg (39.21 KB, 457x381, 130665529708a.jpg)

How about the simple fact that by reading it, there's no uniform assessment of quality?

How many times have you found yourself going back to a old favorite where you just start tearing into its flaws, and soon find that you just don't enjoy it as much as you remember?
The story hasn't changed, the reader has.

Fanfiction is bottom of the barrel. It has the deserved reputation of being horrible, the exorbitant entry fee of requiring emotional investment, and the often terrifying ability to affect the viewer to the very core.

For every epic wonderful experience you might have with a fic, there's seven clear rough drafts, six that need an editor, five Connor Traces, four self inserts banging Luna, three future Cupcakes, two foalcon clops, and a Pattycakes in a pear tree.

All of which have equal chances to affect you emotionally.

If you see bad art, it annoys you. If you hear bad music you change it. If you read a fic that puts you off, you have a way better chance just to stop reading fics entirely.

Rambling aside, I can understand why I love it. But it's a terribly flawed medium, and I can also understand why it's avoided by the drooling masses.

2728

>Why is fan fiction always relegated to the bottom of the bin?

As others have said, it's because any idiot can write something that resembles a fanfiction.

And for good reason. Anyone who went to any kind of schooling as a kid, even homeschooling, was taught to write. You do essays, you do reports, you do research papers. Everyone can write.

Meanwhile, art and music are electives. They aren't required courses, and really, anyone trying to get into a good college is going to be busy taking required classes and probably foreign languages to take something like Band.

This means that literally anyone who has gone to a public school thinks they can write, but can't sing, play an instrument, or draw, and places like FiMFiction give them a low barrier of entry to something they think they're good at.

And so, you get massive, massive piles of terrible fics. Most people can look at a drawing they made and know it's not near the quality of other artists. They can pick up a guitar and know they don't know how to play it. But people /think/ they're good writers, and so write and post anyway because, hey, they've been writing for a long time, so how bad can they be?

Also, it's cheap. If you have a computer, even one from 2002, you can write. Music requires buying instruments or software, art requires a scanner or a drawing tablet plus supplies.

Also that stuff about it taking effort to read a fic, but seconds to appreciate a drawing. That doesn't help, either.

>that's the only possible way said people would ever reach a broader audience


Eh, yes and no. It's entirely possible to write a fic that gets plenty of viewers without being posted in EqD (I, personally, have a fic with 3,500 views that won't get posted on EqD), and there are also a good deal of fics who have been posted on EqD and still have sub-400 views.

If a fic is good, it will get read. Usually. But then, so do bad fics - throw a dart at the FiMFiction featured box and you have a good chance of spearing a turd.

Anyway, my point is, people put far too much value on EqD's front page. Being posted will almost always increase viewership, but it is far from the only way to "reach a broader audience."

Ezn!RAopYJNHZ6 2736

I forgot to mention it before, but I'm sure a big reason why fic authors don't get in documentaries or any of that is the whole legality thing. People involved with the show (or at least its writing) can listen to music or look at fanart all they like, but read a fic and there will be legal troubles. Just ask Marion Zimmer Bradley.

On another, happier, related note: http://www.fimfiction.net/blog/84974/another-fan-fiction-rant

This is really just a reiteration of what I've said before, but here's a fun game to play, courtesy of Cold in Gardez:

Choose a fic, be it one of yours or a famous one. Look at the total wordcount and the views for the latest chapter.

The average person reads at 250 words per minute, and we'll assume that each view represents someone who's read all of it.

(wordcount * viewcount) / wpm = total mount of time invested in that fic

The Flight of the Alicorn? 3.8 years.
Background Pony? 16 years.
Sunny Skies All Day Long 2.3 years.
If a Pony Catch a Pony (one of my most obscure favourites) 6.3 days.
Jake's Under a Luminous Sky? 124 days.
GV's Another Day for the Whooves? 167.6 days.

My own Long Distance? 112 days.

These are optimistic estimates, of course, but bear in mind they only take into account views on FIMFiction, and a lot of these fics have GDoc alts.

Now imagine how much a musician or artist would have to do and how known that stuff would have to be to get that kind of a time investment. Even if everyone spends a minute looking your picture (or reading your comic, that's more likely to take a minute), to get even one day it'd have to be seen by 1440 people. You'd need 8.4 million people to read your comic to be on Background Pony levels of stranger time-engagement.

Fanfic will always be the little guy because you just can't hope to have the number of fans other stuff has and use so many hours of each one's time, but we make up in quality what we lack in quantity.

Demetrius!WDFBcC5x22 2739

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>>2736
> I'm sure a big reason why fic authors don't get in documentaries or any of that is the whole legality thing.
Why? I've always thought worrying about legal issues and fair use in the medium of fanfiction to be incredibly silly. Maybe it's just that, all things considered, few people's writing ever reaches a sufficiently large audience, nor garners enough fame, for it to be even near worth deeming a blatant copyright violation. I especially get this impression of its silliness when I see a disclaimer about not owning the source material on a tiny new fanfiction, which just screams "I'm new at this fanfiction business." The very belief that such caution is warranted belies the ridiculous pretension (or naive hope in the possibility) that the story will get popular enough to draw the attention and wrath of the almighty Hasbro down on it.

Now, consider the Shards of Equestria card series based on MTG. That was copyright violation. The creators of that earned themselves the C&D letter that eventually came to them. That's because they actually took graphics (i.e. emblems, textures, designs, etc) that are the intellectual property of Wizards of the Coast, LLC directly from MTG, in addition to taking stills directly from My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic. This double-whammy of unsanctioned use was widely redistributed like it was no big deal. Compare that with a famous fanfiction like Fallout: Equestria, and how much in common it has with the material from which it draws inspiration.

What I'm trying to say is that only if the copyright owners are so zealous that they would go out of their way to protect the names of their characters from unsanctioned use would the "legality thing" even remotely be a problem.

2740

As a side note to my above post, I find that a lot of brony writers have no idea how good they have it.

I come from the furry fandom (yes, yes, calm down), and was deeply involved with it for many years, almost a whole decade. And let me tell you something - you just don't write in the furry fandom. It's just not something that happens.

People balk and laugh at the mention of furry writing. Writers are frequently talked down to, and basically treated like second class citizens. Nobody takes it seriously. There are furry authors who have been published - actually, really published, and their stories still cap out at 300, maybe 400 views. Porn and fetishes sometimes get more views, but for the most part, the furry fandom literally doesn't read or write.

Furry authors have no websites to post on, not like we do. There's FurAffinity, who only displays raw .txt files. Upload anything else and it has to be downloaded by the reader and opened in Word - don't have Word? Well, they can't read your story, then. Sorry! Decide you want formatting? Yeah, okay. Do it in HTML. Really!

And there's no other websites.

There's no resources for a furry writer to go to. There's the Furry Writer's Guild - but if you think EqD is hard to get posted on, it's nothing compared to there. You have to be a published, professional furry author to get allowed to even /join/ the Writer's Guild, let alone get a story featured there. Want to grow as a writer, and join a community where you can get help? Too bad. Get published or nobody will even give you the time of day.

Meanwhile, we have FiMFiction, the Fiction Vault, Pony Fiction Archive, Equestria Daily, Equestria After Dark, SEVERAL chans with dedicated fic boards… we have a lot of resources that no other fandom has.

So, as for OP? I definitely don't think that, at least in the pony community, we are "regulated to the bottom of the bin." Pony fic writers have it pretty cushy compared to other large fandoms that are dominated by art, and I really do mean that. We've only been around for about two years and have four times the websites dedicated to us than the furry fandom in it's 25+ years of existence.

Yeah, artists get more attention. VAs and musicians get interviews on documentaries. But, really? Brony writers have it REALLY comfortable. At least here we have readers.

>>2739

To be fair, there's some fairly big websites that host fanfiction and require you to post disclaimers. I know AdultFanFiction.net in particular requires every chapter of every story to have a disclaimer claiming no violation of copyright hand written by the author, or you can't post your story.

While it is pretty silly to do, it's a very wide spread idea and people latch onto it.

Surprised Guy 2741

File: 1356331975707.gif (91.52 KB, 650x450, Bucket Face.gif)

>>2740
25+ years??? O_o

2742

>>2741

Furry fandom has been around for a damn long time. Basically since newsgroups.

2743

>>2739
I was mostly thinking of the other side of the issue, where writers avoid fanfiction entirely in case they accidentally get influenced and subsequently sued.

Compared to how Daniel Ingram listens to remixes of his songs and… well, yeah, perception of fanfiction vs other stuff is bound to be coloured by that.

>>2740
So much this. I agree so much it hurts. I've made similar rants before.

I've got some original fiction sprinkled here and there, but even one of my pony works totally eclipses it in terms of readers. On most of the Internet, especially if you're not specifically writing about a setting/characters people already know/care about, you're lucky to get your stuff read by fifty people and commented on by five — across a three forums, a blog and a writing showcase site that has a quarter of the features FIMFiction does and expects you to pay for half of them.

Azusa!fG2qnvpWXU 2744

>>2740
I can kinda understand why furry writing wouldn't be very popular. Of the furry webcomics that I've read, all of them could've easily been about human beings and the story would've been exactly the same. What's the point?

Tactical!fRainBOoMw 2745

>>2744

Actually, I am no furry but I would love a story that makes some use of the fact that they're furry characters. Same way I like writing about pegasus culture so much.

Except it would be better because they'd be sexy animal-people instead of ponies.

Azusa!fG2qnvpWXU 2748

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Bleeding Rain!DROPScczL2 2750

File: 1356347342688.png (117.96 KB, 945x945, Shrugpony Pinkamena.png)

We could send a letter to the Bronycon Staff, asking for more fan fiction recognition. EqD had a panel last year (which I went to for obvious reasons) and they mentioned well known fictions such as Fallout:Equestria and Bubbles. There's a #Bronycon on webchat.irchighway.net, no reason we can't ask. Though, judging by this thread, there wouldn't be much point.

dolfeus!doseuxbE3s 2754

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>>2739
>if the copyright owners are so zealous that they would go out of their way to protect the names of their characters from unsanctioned use

Change that to names, effigies, and personalities of their characters (not to mention all the little bits of canon lore and setting between the fanon).

>>2728

Quite interesting. I know little about that particular fandom, but I'm curious: Is there even a publishing house worth its salt that publishes furry novels? Is there a magazine which includes furry stories? I just… I've never really thought of it as an established genre, and I don't think it is. Therein might lie the problem, especially considering there are support groups for such things as "Urban Paranormal Romance" and such.

Maybe it just needs proper marketing…

*wanders off mumbling about sales indexes and investment returns*

>>2745

Wait, how furry?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SlidingScaleOfAnthropomorphism

Currently, they're probably Civilized Animals. I don't understand what you're suggesting. You want to move them up to Petting Zoo People?

*has a Mykan flash-back* *shakes head vigorously*

Or is it not a matter of physical appearance at all?

Tactical!fRainBOoMw 2755

>>2754

Oh I dunno.

Azu said that a lot of furry stuff doesn't ever acknowledge the fact that they're animals.

In response, I said that it would be really cool to read something where the author made an effort to give them cool non-human social structures, technology, whatever.

What does this have to do with Mykan again?
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dolfeus!doseuxbE3s 2756

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>>2755
>What does this have to do with Mykan again?

Oh, well, I thought you meant something to do with changing their appearance to make them more human-like. That's… ya, I'm not going to talk about it.

But, I see you mean really just the inverse and opposite. Showing how the culture copes with being beastly. Sounds interesting, really.

2764

Okay, I guess I misspoke.

I am fully aware that most fan fiction is crap, and that personal tastes does not matter in terms of quality.

But there ARE high-quality fics out there. And in a community that has been propelled to where it is primarily in fan generated content, why shouldn't we shine a quick light on the better fictions out there? Not saying SSnE should get top billing, but come on, at least a quick name drop! They push fanart so hard, and the obviously DONT push the crap, only the good.

Also, we all decry the growing illiteracy, but why don't we try and fix it by askin con organizers to spotlight the better amongst us?

Also, with all this cynicism, why do we even care? All this dogging on the very reason we are here for. Why do we write? If the medium is truly without merit, then why participate in it?
This post was edited by its author on .

Azusa!fG2qnvpWXU 2765

>>2764
Pen Stroke is not the most popular author in the fandom. His story, Past Sins, is the only thing he's written that is really that popular. That's why he's been writing side stories for it lately. If you don't believe me, just look at his chapter view stats.

2766

>>2765

Okay then forget Pen Stroke! I'm not even a big fan of Past Sins, it was pure meh. Forget Brony Cray, SSnE, ANY author. Why should we NOT try and shine a light in the one or two works that DO have merit?

Eustatian!Wings60m9. 2767

>>2725
> foalcon clop
Who says that has to be bad? I got into my latest story by asking why the genre sucks, and then trying to make it so adorable and non-offensive that readers might just overlook that it is about a barely-pubescent pony masturbating with her sister. I'm rather happy with how it's turning out. That sort of risk taking is only possible in non-professional media.

Wish me luck for when I post it to FiMFic…



>>2736
> stranger time

A reader-megaword is writing a thousand words and getting a thousand people to read it. It is four thousand minutes of attention, or 2.78 days, or the amount of attention it takes one to read Harry Potter.

You have given me a huge hug, because my scores are…

buttercupcakes - 0.10 RMW
Watching Paint Dry - 2.01
Fear of Falling - 27.98

Ponies like their FlutterDash, I guess.


Now, the really fun part: figure your readers' time averages $15 an hour, and a reader-megaword is worth $1000 in your readers' time.

Don't waste it. But be proud to have earned what you have.

>>2745
>> FURRYDOM, XENO, etc, etc <<

I grew up on Animorphs, the authors of which wanted to write about two things:
- conflict between vastly different societies
- the varied perspectives of many, many animal species

The series succeeded marvelously on both counts. There is a hilarious early passage about being as wired and nervous as a squirrel. You think the Andalite species of herd-grazers are all pretty nice and docile and non-aggressive - but later we learned that they exterminated every predatory species on their planet that could conceivably threaten them, and that they're pretty much cool with mass genocide when they're threatened. Which is like herd-grazing species on Earth.

There's the emo-hawk - a kid with a shit family life gets himself stuck as a red-tailed hawk just to get away from it all. When the emotional horror and mindfuckery get to be too much, the (rather young) protagonists turn into dogs or dolphins because they really enjoy life. The ant misadventure was really horrifying.

I like that kind of thing in fiction. Including - especially clop. I thought maybe I'd like that kind of thing in art.

Yiff (furry r34) is not what I hoped it was. Let's keep it clean in this thread, but it's probably not too much to mention this:

Clop art consists of two subgenres:
- Grotesquely-proportioned cartoon people reminiscent of ponies.
- Grotesquely-proportioned cartoon things with little resemblance to anything natural.

The only place I can imagine the second comes from is yiff art. And a quick google shows, yep, exactly the same tropes. Pony yiff… *urp* is not to my liking.

There are few, precious few works of cute, on-model, and reasonably pony-ish erotica or even artsy nudes. Like, imagine Big Mac passed out on his back after a day's work. Canon style won't draw his junk because censorship, and that's fine. And because r34, it wouldn't be too hard to find this sort of image with a ridiculous yiff-dong stapled to his crotch.

But, simple fact is that stallion parts tuck themselves away quite modestly. They're less in-your-face than a dog's - he'd be about as exposed as a man wearing tight trunks. And that style is extremely rare. I can think of two artists off the top of my head, and they both only draw mares.

2768

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>>2767
Dude, you know that what you're doing is against the law. I wouldn't even be comfortable with the files on Google's servers. See: http://cbldf.org/about-us/case-files/handley/

That is unless you aren't an American. If you're Japanese, then by all means.
This post was edited by its author on .

2769

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Demetrius!WDFBcC5x22 2770

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Tactical!fRainBOoMw 2774

>>2767

>Animorphs


I don't see the "different societies" angle. Yeah there's some cool stuff going on with the Andalites, but largely the antagonists are just scary aliens.

You have the completely monstrous and not-
sympathetic-at-all villains, and you have the mantis-guys who are basically Hydralisks in that they were assimilated and bred to make use of their natural weapons.

That said I did LOVE aspects like Tobias losing his humanity, the gloves-off horror episodes like with the ants, characters having to deal with their brains and senses working differently, etc.

Eustatian!Wings60m9. 2780

>>2774
The side stories (Chronicles delve deeper into the alien species. Did you read those?

>le issue

Handley plead guilty to a charge that only applies to visual depictions, on poor legal advice. That does not make a strong precedent anywhere in the US.

I appreciate your concern, though. I believe riding in the front of the bus is worth the very small risk of prosecution here. That part of the PROTECT Act (I like the rest of the law, the law enforcement parts and the ban on US citizens going) is on shaky constitutional ground - Handley should have fought based on the precedent of Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition.

I understand and respect why people wouldn't want to read my story (it's called "First Dawn" by the way). But I do ask that you not judge its literary merits without reading it. If I'm in trouble, I wouldn't want to be any of the other authors…

2781

Also, I'm dropping off-grid for a couple of days (entirely unrelated; family vacation). See y'all when I'm back.

2782

>Handley should have fought based on the precedent of Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition.

Gee wilikers, this sounds very familiar.

Soundslikeponies!bQsJPGMNfw 2797

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>>2696
>Besides the above and MidnightShadow, I haven't heard of any of those authors.
> haven't heard of any of those authors
> any of those authors
> any of those authors

>mfw
This post was edited by its author on .

2900

>>2797
Meh, don't feel bad, dude. Apparently I just have shitty taste in authors.

3516

Just watched the Brony documentary and I can see where people are coming from, now.

Artists and musicians got segments of the film dedicated to them, writers got two lines in a song and directly mentioned shipping and clopping.

But that's kind of to be expected. There isn't really much about writing they could put in a little blurb (in between all the scenes of interviewing awkward people's parents, after all) so whatever.

Breath of Plagues 3517

I don't really have anything profound to say on this subject really, and I'm definitely not a great writer, that's for sure, but do any of us really write because we want recognition?

Sure, there are a lot of names in the community who deserve it, I get that and yeah it's a little annoying, but I don't think that's just not why we do what we do. In my short time here I've learned so much, and read a lot of work that's opened my mind. I've realized how much I like reading again and I've never been happier creating worlds and expressing myself. Isn't that enough?

Do we really care what anyone else thinks?

Anonymous 3518

>>3517

It's more about the precedence set. Think about how permission usually has to be requested to write fanfiction based off a piece of fanart of fan-music, but fan-music and fanart based off a piece of fanfiction is generally viewed as a honor.

You could argue that fanfiction is more of an expansion than a celebration of the original content, but in both cases they're unsolicited derivative works of derivative works, and one of them's giving itself airs and graces.

People're just pissed that we're at the bottom of the pile, and yet probably put in equal if not greater hours than either of the other two.

3522

My thing is still this: Yes, there is a WHOLE lot of crap fiction out there. Good GOD, is there. But then, have you been to Deviant Art lately? Holy crap, a good 75% of all art on there is total junk, just like 75% of FIMFiction is junk. But we still celebrate the best of the best at artwork.

You're right, Short Skirts, Ponydora Prancypants, Loyal2Luna, and all the rest aren't anywhere near publishing quality. But then, John Joseco isn't going to be in the Louvre anytime soon. Mandopony isn't going to appear or Ryan Seacrest's Top Forty, is he? But we still celebrate them , because for what they are, amateurs, they are pretty damn good. Why should we not also lift up the best writers amongst us?

Azusa!fG2qnvpWXU 3527

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>>3522
I'm just curious, what is your standard for "publishable level of quality" anyway? I can name a few Pony fic authors who could easily have their work published if copyright wasn't an issue.

Breath of Plagues 3530

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>>3518
Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree with you. I think a lot of the great writing works definitely have more depth and time spent working on them, and if we're going to have a documentary singing the brony community's praises, we should definitely at least be in there, right?

But then, since when has the world been fair? I think, as artists, it's just another price of the hopelessness of our craft. We're going to pour everything into what we do and nobody is going to care. It's a tragic truth but it's just part of our ethos.

I think any tragic mistreatment that one faces simply reaffirms how important this is to us when we keep going.

I understand why people are upset, but it's never been about glory or any form of it. It's about finding that one thing that has meaning. I think if I had any remote success, it would cloud my focus on what really matters. I'm happy to be disliked.

Anonymous 3531

>>3518
I'll stop asking for permission to do that, if it helps.

>>3522
>implying Top 40 music is good

>>3527
Unless you work for a publishing company, I very much doubt that.

3532

Wow, you guys. Come on. What's this crap all about? You're all losing sight of what's really important.

Here's the kicker, and why writing is in fact the most appreciated art form: A story remains in your mind long after it is finished. Think about that for a second. How many drawings have you brushed through on deviantArt, drawfriends, etc. only to forget five seconds later that they ever existed? The investment required in writing is as much its strength as it is its weakness. Those who would take the time to be considered your readers will take much more from what you've written than those who would take the half a second it takes to look at a picture. Anyone who has read the behemoths that are End of Ponies, Fallout: Equestria, Past Sins (yes, I went there), or Background Pony will remember those stories long after they're done reading them. They'll be points of discussion in conversation relevant to the topics they addressed. They are pervasive in the community's culture more so than anything else.

When someone draws something that begs more detail, the first response is to write fanfiction about it. Why? Because writing is the richest form of art (film being a close second in my mind, but that requires a lot more than just a nobody with a word processor). My Little Dashie was originally a comic, but everyone remembers the story.

Stephen King and J.K Rowling can't fill stadiums like Justin Bieber can, but their impact on our culture will be felt much more as time goes by. Homer is still remembered after more than a millenia since he wrote the Odyssey. Can you say the same for the musicians and artists of that time? Which had more impact on society, George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-four or The Beatles' Imagine? Does Da Vinci's Mona Lisa really have that much of a profound impact to anyone except art students?

Don't pretend that just because musicians/artists get more attention that they're getting it good.

RazgrizS57 !Cinderm9Hs 3535

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>>3532

If I could try and build on this without butchering it and keeping the main idea relatively intact, I think the reason why a lot of why fanfiction is looked "down upon" is in part because of human nature. By that, I mean the average man's attention span. I'm talking about the hook: the thing that keeps the audience—whether it's art, animation, music, or writing—dragged into the piece. With music, the hook is instantaneous with a catchy beat or some form of lyric. Hell, with drawings and such the whole thing itself is a hook.

But with writing, I think, the author does not generally have any easy time creating a hook right of the get-go. A proper hook has to be developed, thought out, or pique the reader's interest, and so on and so forth. And that's another thing: interest. Not every story is going to get people's interest. I did not like Night's Favoured Child because the prologue failed to appeal to me. I liked Reading Rainbow because the idea of Rainbow Dash reading to Twilight sounded adorable. I liked The End of Ponies because right of the bat it thrusts the reader right into the action. I liked Beyond The Wall because the very first two sentences made me curious. I have not and likely won't read Past Sins because I do not find the story's plot interesting. I gave Fallout: Equestria a read despite hating the Fallout series in general because I love dark stories (although I gave up a third of the way through because it got tedious and boring).

The hook is, in my opinion, the most important thing in any medium of entertainment. Look around: it's in advertisements, on the front page of CNN, in commercials, on billboards and literally everything. And it's all there in a flash and more often than not there for just as long. It's just, that for writing in general, a lot of people tend to not have the right attention span because a story is not delivered down the barrel of a gun and thrust into your eye. That, I think, it why writing—fanfiction especially—is looked "down upon." I'm sure there's a story out there that would trump a story like Background Pony any day, but because either the hook failed as a hook or it's a premise no one has interest in, no one will ever see it. Instead, other stories—the ones seen as "bad" by those who know what they're saying and aren't putting that label on just because of opinion—are viewed positively because they either interest the reader, go straight into the action, or are just plain simple however flawed (grammatically, structurally, et cetera) they may be. And, for some reason, people tend to look beyond the flaws and while I'm not saying they shouldn't, I'm saying they shouldn't disregard them.

A lot more of it, of course, has to do with the author, grammar, format, and all that technical stuff everyone should know. But then again, somehow shit like "Chrysalis with a penis rapes Twilight over waffles" makes the front page of fimfiction on a regular basis, so how the hell should I know what grabs a person's attention?

TL;DR
Good writing is complex. "Bad" writing is simple. The average person is simple. The two don't fit well on a regular basis. Deal with and make the best of it.
This post was edited by its author on .

Anonymous 3541

>>3527
>>3531
I've been on both sides of publishing stories professionally. I can affirm that there are certainly authors with the ability to publish among the fandom, but that doesn't mean they would get accepted as-is even if copyright weren't a consideration. A lot of the structure behind fanfiction simply doesn't translate to a market in the "real" world. Take something like Background Pony. It's certainly a great story, but it simply doesn't fit in publishing. For one thing, the pacing is all off. As said earlier, it would fit much better as a TV series than a novel/movie. In addition to that, it's simply too overblown and wordy for most publishers to even consider looking past the first chapter.

Now, there are several oneshots, genuine short stories, that would have a chance of getting a conditional acceptance from local or small magazines. Often, however, those aren't paid stories so much as just publishing for the magazine's readers. Still, many consider that to be "professional" level.

Selling a story is a lot more work, and accordingly the magazines (or publishing houses) that buy them use different considerations as to what they print. It's not so much, "What will readers like?" as "What will readers buy?" While they often coincide, it's a different way of looking at it that fanfiction simply isn't written to respond to.

In any case, none of the work on Fimfiction would be suit to print professionally, and without knowing what other stories are in the authors' respective collections, it's impossible to make a judgment on posting said non-pony works. Each unsolicited story is evaluated individually, and I can safely say none of the fimfiction authors have been solicited to write professional stories based upon their work on MLP fiction.

TL; DR: Stories, not authors, get published. None of the stories on fimfiction or EqD would be purchased. Submissions are a messy business that I'd rather not delve into more.

3567

We'll put one on if you guys want to be on one :D

http://www.bronycon.org/events/panel-ideas

Applejinx !tDashiepow 3596

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>>3567
We'll put more than one on. I'm enlisted to do a novelist masterclass. Seein' as I have written three books in the last year or so (300,000 words), I'm allowed, and I'm going to tell exactly how that is done in hopes lots of other ponies begin writing books that work as books.

We're going to have to score at least a few megastar poni writers (which I am NOT, I'm like the Velvet Underground of poni and we need some Beatles) but it looks like we're going to slant the programming towards helping ponies LEARN to write and get excited about pursuing our craft in a serious way.

Because it is an awesome craft, and all those movie and TV guys would be nowhere without a script. John DeLancie owes everything he has to writers. Someone WROTE 'Q' for him to inhabit. We are those someones. Someone WROTE My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic. Everybody accepts that the MLP writing is most of what made it be the magic it is.

We're gonna support that in Bronycon. There are those among you who are ALREADY helping ;)

Writers shall prevail! :D

Tactical 3597

I hope I can find a recording of the novelist panel and of any other writing panels that go on!

Anyway, my whole position on the OP issue is thus :

Gardez should have been FIRST on the list of interviewees. I firmly believe that he is the most interesting brony in the fandom.

3599

>>3597

I agree, but also The Descendant, Skirts, and to make it fair, some that haven't been published to EqD, like:

Loyal2Luna, who worte a truly amazing series of DDoctor Whooves stories, all continuing where Squeak left off with Traveler.

http://www.fimfiction.net/story/3617/doctor-whooves--the-series-episode-two-game-of-stones

Anonymous Pegasus- A very talented writer who wrote some very touching, funny stuff, but people only ever talk about the clop he writes. Check out this story, truly a great one:

http://www.fimfiction.net/story/25117/antecedent

3613

>>3596

>which I am NOT, I'm like the Velvet Underground of poni and we need some Beatles


Coming from someone who's a big fan of the VU & N banana album, you're expecting me to let that one slide, Jinx?

3623

>>3613
>>3596
The Velvet Underground of ponies would be a great choice for a writing panelist seeing as, y'know, everyone who bought a Velvet Underground album started a band.

Filler 3629

>>3596
Sounds like there should be some collaboration between the panels to determine who says what, then.

Update Azusa!fG2qnvpWXU 3641

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Just wanted to leave this here: http://www.fimfiction.net/blog/118210


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